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  1. #1
    King of Frost Giants King Laufey's Avatar
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    Default Can you see Joker as being the inspiration for a new generation of villains?

    Say Joker did die for good and soon after all of the villains in Gotham either got locked up for good, killed, retired, or simply and for a few years it was peaceful then a new generation of villains popped up each just as deranged if not more so then the Joker. Then while fighting them all Batman discovers Joker had a hand in creating them either as their mentor, inspiration or the guy that made them go insane. Ultimately these new villains drag Gotham back down into darkness destroying everything Batman worked for and Joker reveals via a pre recording that he planned it all even his death and made it his legacy to destroy Batman's hopes and dreams. Can you see Joker having that big of an impact?

    I personally think it would suit him I mean what better way to screw with Batman then to let him taste a peaceful Gotham and then from beyond the grave rip it away from him leaving Batman no way to take revenge. Besides Harley can't be the only lunatic that would practically worship Joker and want to carry on his legacy of madness.

  2. #2
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    It's already been done. Jokerz in Batman Beyond, Clown gangs in 'Tec #15.

  3. #3
    King of Frost Giants King Laufey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    It's already been done. Jokerz in Batman Beyond, Clown gangs in 'Tec #15.
    Yeah but I'm talking about individual super villains each having their own style not that pathetic Joker gang.

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    Yeah, I like the idea of a second generation rogues gallery, between Tim Drake and Dick Grayson's ages (some could be older, some younger, the ages don't matter so much, I guess) rising up in Gotham. It's Gotham's form of celebrity and it seems to me that people from all around the world would be flocking to Gotham for a chance at the big leagues. It's part of what I loved about the Club of Villains from RIP. The same way that Batman influences vigilantes around the world, his villains influence villains around the world. But yeah, I would love to see a mega-arc that introduces a bunch of young wannabe villains with their own schticks. Problem is, most writers currently writing aren't creative enough to make long-lasting characters. Morrison could kill it. And even Snyder was great at introducing some younger villains in "Black Mirror" (but I feel like if he did a big arc about it, it wouldn't actually work very well, and some of his ideas are too grounded). So either of those two could do a great job with it.

    But even Tomasi, probably my third favorite Bat writer, tends to create mediocre new characters.

    So if its going to be a big plot point/storyline, I'd rather save it for someone who can pack twenty years worth of history into new characters right off the bat. And that's Morrison...

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Retro315's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Laufey View Post
    Yeah but I'm talking about individual super villains each having their own style not that pathetic Joker gang.
    The Joker (and Catwoman) debuted in Batman # 1.

    He was already the inspiration for the FIRST generation of Batman Rogues' Gallery, and I don't think guys like Penguin, Scarecrow, Riddler or Two-Face would have come about if he hadn't come along first - just more gangsters and Yellow Peril caricatures. This isn't to say he couldn't be the inspiration for a new generation of rogues. There's naturally the references already listed - the Jokerz gang, a few other examples.

    But very, very specifically there's Grant Morrison's recent additions to the Batman villain club. And they are all practically influenced by Joker. Every member of the Club of Villains worships him and references a facet of his composition (Scorpiana: Poison, Sombrero: Kill-Houses, Caligula: Perversion, Bossu: Grotesque, and carving people, Swagman: Infamy of an Outlaw (and Heath Ledger/Ned Kelley link).

    Then there was Professor Pyg; Hurt's "take 2" of Joker, even used in the Joker role for the second "R.I.P." scenario, who holed up in Joker's old haunted circus hideout, and led a very Batman '89 toxic parade through the streets, and whose henchmen were a proper circus freak-show, just from a more modern variety of circus (all stunt-men and oddities instead of clowns or classic carnival side-show characters (which also linked them directly to circus-owning daredevil Kathy Kane)).

    Then there was Flamingo; Hurt's assassin in pink (rather than purple), whose outfit and motorcycle blended Prince (singer of the '89 Batman soundtrack) with Zorro (Batman's inspiration) to be an antithesis to the Red Hood (whose outfit blended Batman (his inspiration) with Joker's Red Hood ensemble (his killer)).

    There was Pearly King Charlie English and the Smooth Eddie, the Pearly Prince of Crime - the old-time street performer crime who seemed to know things about the Domino Killer that could indicate they "know" Joker on a semi-professional level - to say nothing of feuding with a more cultish, Satanic, less-classical style of crime royalty from "Up North" with Darkseid links, the same way Joker was feuding with Doctor Hurt's people.

    All the best new villains of the last few years of Batman are a new generation of villains inspired almost directly by The Joker, and the facets of him spotlighted and extrapolated upon.
    Last edited by Retro315; 01-29-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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  6. #6
    King of Frost Giants King Laufey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnhop View Post
    Yeah, I like the idea of a second generation rogues gallery, between Tim Drake and Dick Grayson's ages (some could be older, some younger, the ages don't matter so much, I guess) rising up in Gotham. It's Gotham's form of celebrity and it seems to me that people from all around the world would be flocking to Gotham for a chance at the big leagues. It's part of what I loved about the Club of Villains from RIP. The same way that Batman influences vigilantes around the world, his villains influence villains around the world. But yeah, I would love to see a mega-arc that introduces a bunch of young wannabe villains with their own schticks. Problem is, most writers currently writing aren't creative enough to make long-lasting characters. Morrison could kill it. And even Snyder was great at introducing some younger villains in "Black Mirror" (but I feel like if he did a big arc about it, it wouldn't actually work very well, and some of his ideas are too grounded). So either of those two could do a great job with it.

    But even Tomasi, probably my third favorite Bat writer, tends to create mediocre new characters.

    So if its going to be a big plot point/storyline, I'd rather save it for someone who can pack twenty years worth of history into new characters right off the bat. And that's Morrison...
    Very true to be honest I don't see why such a story arc hasn't been introduced and I really would like to see how Batman and the Bat Family would react to Joker having such a plan and influence. I mean it really wouldn't be surprising look at Harley he manipulated a therapist trained to deal with the criminally insane and made her his flunky. Just imagine what someone like him could do with an already twisted and deranged mind.

    I could seriously imagine Joker cultivating young minds into the next generation of villains in his spare time as sort of a secret hobby of his. Plus it would make him more interesting to have an actual legacy. I could see him finding prospective "students" with various internet sites and blogs even sending encrypted videos with video messages like this.


    Do you think Batman would be blindsided by something like that Joker having a secret following?
    Last edited by King Laufey; 01-30-2013 at 07:02 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Laufey View Post
    Yeah but I'm talking about individual super villains each having their own style not that pathetic Joker gang.
    You mean like Joker's Daughter in "Kingdom Come"?

    Yes I can see it happening, since it happens a lot in comics set in possible futures.

  8. #8
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Laufey View Post
    Yeah but I'm talking about individual super villains each having their own style not that pathetic Joker gang.
    If the Jokerz are pathetic, the reason is that Joker is pathetic.

    What does he ever accomplish? Killing people? Wooo, who cares? Most villains are after something. Like money, power, etc. Joker can't provide an inspiration for the other villains because he doesn't share any goals with them, much less accomplish them.

    And the other villains who are only interested in killing, like Zsasz, are too into themselves to even notice or care about Joker or what he does.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Vidocq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    If the Jokerz are pathetic, the reason is that Joker is pathetic.

    What does he ever accomplish? Killing people? Wooo, who cares? Most villains are after something. Like money, power, etc. Joker can't provide an inspiration for the other villains because he doesn't share any goals with them, much less accomplish them.

    And the other villains who are only interested in killing, like Zsasz, are too into themselves to even notice or care about Joker or what he does.

    Right, if he had any copycats it would be impressionable teenagers and all around not-that-bright people with identity issues, similar to the Sons of Batman in DKR. The Jokerz would be the best the Joker can hope for.
    ...And does Mr. Goddanm Batman says so much as ''Thanks''? OF COURSE not. That'd hardly be GRIM AND GRITTY, would it?

    The jerk...

    -DKU's Jim Gordon.

  10. #10
    King of Frost Giants King Laufey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidocq View Post
    Right, if he had any copycats it would be impressionable teenagers and all around not-that-bright people with identity issues, similar to the Sons of Batman in DKR. The Jokerz would be the best the Joker can hope for.
    Something to point out the Jokerz they were just a small time gang that really only drew their inspiration from the Joker he had nothing to do with them until his return in the Batman Beyond movie and when he did head a small group of them they pretty went from small time to serious threat even the Joker said it "Worthless all of you a disgrace to the name Joker why in my day." I imagine if he had minds as deranged as his following him he could take Gotham.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Vidocq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Laufey View Post
    Something to point out the Jokerz they were just a small time gang that really only drew their inspiration from the Joker he had nothing to do with them until his return in the Batman Beyond movie and when he did head a small group of them they pretty went from small time to serious threat even the Joker said it "Worthless all of you a disgrace to the name Joker why in my day." I imagine if he had minds as deranged as his following him he could take Gotham.
    No, because deranged minds don't think well... hence why they are deranged and not strategic geniuses and if the Joker had people as smart as him they wouldn't follow him, they would go on their own. No reason to submit to the will of someone who isn't your superiour. People who take someone else's identity do so because they lack one of their own. And the Jokerz were a Gang dude. Maybe they weren't recluted by Darkseid but they killed people and otherwise victimized people, I don't see why the Joker would be beneath them, I could see why he would think he is, but is not like he is in some way superior to anyone. He is the Joker.
    ...And does Mr. Goddanm Batman says so much as ''Thanks''? OF COURSE not. That'd hardly be GRIM AND GRITTY, would it?

    The jerk...

    -DKU's Jim Gordon.

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