What Makes Aboriginal Sacred Sites?

[Iangould]

I was wondering something along those lines. Could it be that the greater population in the east means that a number of sites may have been torn down over the years so that the land could be used for something that was perceived as more productive?

Isn't a chunk of noerth-eastern England sinking and/or eroding at a relatively quick rate? Half the sites there were prboably near the coast as it it was so now they're likely under water - like Sea Henge.

[Iangould]

I was wondering something along those lines. Could it be that the greater population in the east means that a number of sites may have been torn down over the years so that the land could be used for something that was perceived as more productive?

Isn't a chunk of north-eastern England sinking and/or eroding at a relatively quick rate? Half the sites there were probably near the coast as it it was so now they're likely under water - like Sea Henge.

Also you guys are forgetting the big invasion: the Romans. Celtish and Pictish religious practises probably continued centuries longer above Hadrians's wall.

[Captain Clarkie]

there are Sites in the North-East though, going by the map. East Anglia is eroding the quickest if IIRC, also the Romans seemed to have left a lot of sites intact everywhere else they occupied. Puma's got some good pre-history chops and suggested this in Rita's -

I'm trying to remember about henges and dolmens. There are a number of dolmens in that region but the primary building material in the East and Southeast would be wood, which doesn't hold up well unless it is in a bog or, like the image you posted, underwater. Stonehenge is on the border of stone construction and it has always attracted attention with the having to bring the building materials from a far region; it also, nearby, has the remnants of a wood henge so it is a nice blend of the two styles.

[dupersuper]

Yeah, I was wondering about that "we", too. As my father would have said, "We? What, have you got a turd in your pocket?"

So...shit, your dad said?

[Nick Soapdish]

I was wondering something along those lines. Could it be that the greater population in the east means that a number of sites may have been torn down over the years so that the land could be used for something that was perceived as more productive?

Or the stones were used for something more productive, like castle building.

[jackolover]

I really can't do the concept justice, so no I can't elaborate. I observe it but don't fully understand it.

As an anecdote: Native Americans here in the states revered the Bison since it provided food, shelter, and clothing for them

This I can understand because you get life from this animal.

[jackolover]

Yes and no. There has been so much mining or prospecting going on that reserves have established and gotten traded worldwide since basically forever.
Eventhough hardship and exploitation always appears to work out as striking rather particularly in any case.
My country will certainly have had a hand in such, both in prospecting as well as exploitation both as hard labor, all rolled into one messy clot.

But that doesn't mean that prospecting should just remain ruthless, or that exploitation should just be to continue, especially not if it wouldn't be needed or if there would be perfectly good alternatives to both ruthless prospecting both as to exploitation.

Not because people would be so nice and decent and sanctimonious, but because innovation and profit both as effectiveness would actually be going hand-in-hand.

Electrical automobiles or cheap/clean harvesting energy from wind or water or lab-grown diamonds and conductors are not some pipedream youknow.
Any mineral applications are getting innovated or either abandoned for any applicable alternatives, for the sake of both effectivity as well as pure profit.
People working it or making such possible already are making millions with it. Even with recycling - that isn't just garbage, eventhough it actually is!
Most known medical substances or ingredients continue to become innovated just the same. Not merely in Europe but on a global scale more rather, I'd be to think.

I'd like to see the principles of justification applied to displaced Indigenous rights in countries that exploited them. Right now, everything is studied and proper practices applied before mining, except for indigenous rights. Funny how that works isn't it. Full environmental studies are done, so no rivers get contaminated, but pity the poor traditional owner, because his rights were never recognized in the first place.

[jackolover]

Yes. And successfully. It's a little thing called empathy and cultural awareness.
Helpful things to develop and well worth your time.

I'm glad to hear that you have successfully achieved this. Have they committed you yet?

[jackolover]

Because you migrate. You follow the seasons, back and forth, crossing familiar territory over and over again, and passing the same hills, and streams and rock formations. And in those streams, you find the fish and water to keep yourself and your family alive, and in those hills, you find food, and in that rock formation, you find shelter. And as you pass them back and forward, and generations and generations pass, stories grow up about the time someone's great, great, grandfather, after leading his family through a desert in search of food, found this lake full of fish and game and so, they were able to survive... or the time when, while standing on this rock formation many, many years ago, someone's great, great grandfather saw the smoke of many fires in the distance, and encountered another group, who intermarried and formed the tribe as we know it today.
Maybe they can see sacredness in these things because of what they symbolize. And maybe because their ancestors cared about things like - where there's water, there's game, as animals come to drink there. And if you come back to this place in the Summer, after the rains, it'll be full of water again, and the animals will be back, maybe that means your family lives and prospers.

It's not bloody rocket surgery.

So it's sort of related to magical things associated with the locations of things more than sacredness in the sense that you can't touch this because something bad will happen. It's a little hard to get a grip of, because you're right, I did migrate out of the traditional lands I came from, so had no connection to the ones I live in now, ancestorily. I once returned to Europe where my people came from and had a fairly strong religious experience associated with the contact of the countries. But nowhere did the people take me around and say, this hill is important to us.

[jackolover]

You seem to confuse heritage with genetics, and to assume "we" haven't already greatly changed..

If we'd changed that much, we would have respected indigenous land rights by now.

Whose "we"?.

Western democracies, who exploit as a matter of course.

[jackolover]

Some land is sacred ground even in secular states, out of simple respect, Try building a shopping Mall on Arlington Cemmitary, or a burger joint on Seminary Ridge. respect for the feeling and belief is not obsolete, just a few are either bigote or selfish enough to ignore them, those folks have always been around and the ethics they go buy tend to be the "Neolithic ethic"

I'm a atheist , but I belie my freedom depends on the ability of people to worship what they choose to worship and hold sacred what they want to hold sacred and that messing with that should only occure in extreme circumstances. Basic human decency is not obsolete

I'm sure the first explorers were just so inclined as well, but it was the exploiters who followed that really tore down the indigenous structures to put up their own.

[bringthenoise]

If we'd changed that much, we would have respected indigenous land rights by now.

"We're not perfect yet, so let's reverse what positive steps we have made!"

Somehow, you've got a worse argument than "Prior generations were cunts". Amazing.

[Paradox]

jackolover just needed a dictionary:

So it's sort of related to magical things associated with the locations of things more than sacredness in the sense that you can't touch this because something bad will happen.

Right. The first part is sort of the definition of "sacred". The "you can't touch this because something bad would happen" had nothing to do with "sacred". I believe most would call that "cursed".

[Paradox]

jackolover broad brushes:

If we'd changed that much, we would have respected indigenous land rights by now.

Most do.

Western democracies, who exploit as a matter of course.

Not really. Select individuals and groups do, mostly corporate entities, but that's not "Western democracies".

[Puma]

I'm sure the first explorers were just so inclined as well, but it was the exploiters who followed that really tore down the indigenous structures to put up their own.

Probably reversed. First explorers tended to be looking for avenues towards wealth, or at least prosperity, most considered native peoples to be savages who could only be redeemed by embracing the culture/beliefs brought by the explorers/early settlers. It seems that in most situations a respect for native structures (in keeping them as is and not looting them) and beliefs begins to happen after the new settlers are, well, settled.