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  1. #241

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    Nightcrawler was awesome! I'm being a bit salacious in saying the X-Women are better(even though if I had to pick, I will still pick them). That said, its hard to divide the characters from the creators. You said Storm was boring as a leader in the 90's, and while there may be some truth to that, its only because Lobdell and the others didn't get her. So when talking about what character is more interesting than another, I think its only fair to compare within the same sphere (ie, the works of Claremont). In that regard, it becomes quite clear who is more interesting. Again, I love me some fuzzy elf, though I only followed a bit of Excalibur(but even there, who were the most interesting characters? Meggan, Phoenix and Kitty!).
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  2. #242
    Yawn... DevilishRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yogaflame View Post
    Nightcrawler was awesome! I'm being a bit salacious in saying the X-Women are better(even though if I had to pick, I will still pick them). That said, its hard to divide the characters from the creators. You said Storm was boring as a leader in the 90's, and while there may be some truth to that, its only because Lobdell and the others didn't get her. So when talking about what character is more interesting than another, I think its only fair to compare within the same sphere (ie, the works of Claremont). In that regard, it becomes quite clear who is more interesting. Again, I love me some fuzzy elf, though I only followed a bit of Excalibur(but even there, who were the most interesting characters? Meggan, Phoenix and Kitty!).
    Well, yeah, they werent as interested in exploring Storm so it really depends on the writer. To me Rachel, Kitty and Kurt were the most interesting. Though I still liked Meggan and Brian and wanted to see more push for them. Its all opinion really. Just liek if you were to write a male character they would probably turn out boring because you dont get them. It goes both ways. The characters dont write themselves.
    Last edited by DevilishRogue; 02-01-2013 at 12:56 PM.

  3. #243
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    Male characters often suffer because male readers and writers project on them. They have to carry the burden of whatever has happened in real life. Everyone has some guy they hated/disliked. The bully, the charmer who "stole" "your" girl, the smarter guy, the stronger, the social genius and so on.

    Female characters can on the other hand be idolized. All the things we want in a girl will be projected onto these characters. They will understand you, see you in the crowd, be perfect. It happens in all forms of media.

    If a female character then starts a relationship with a male character it's often the male who gets the blame. He's deemed "unworthy" and will suffer for it. Sooner or later that fan who had strong opinions about said relationship finds his way into the company. Editorial, writer, artist. Lately we have seen the focus on females from x-men(witch in itself is great), the downside is that old paramours and characters associated with them suffer. Betsy-Warren(wiped clean), Scott(almost a different character)-Jean, Rouge-Gambit(Milligan-Carey), Collossus without Kitty, well possessed by a demon.

    If we apply a formula from mangas about relationships: male hero is suppose to be easy to sympathize with, so we can create a vantage point. Females are complex, interesting and different. So we can care about them. While not so clear and generalized it has it's truths in X-men too.

  4. #244

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    Thread needs scan of Jubilee's guides to pancakes by Jim Mafood.

  5. #245
    Yawn... DevilishRogue's Avatar
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    So judging by this thread, kitchen hijinks determine how interesting a female character is. As someone who cooks I still find this... odd.

    Or the above comment was in reference to the page long discussion of Broccoli and Brusstle Sprouts.

  6. #246
    Senior Member RoguefanAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_888 View Post
    Male characters often suffer because male readers and writers project on them. They have to carry the burden of whatever has happened in real life. Everyone has some guy they hated/disliked. The bully, the charmer who "stole" "your" girl, the smarter guy, the stronger, the social genius and so on.

    Female characters can on the other hand be idolized. All the things we want in a girl will be projected onto these characters. They will understand you, see you in the crowd, be perfect. It happens in all forms of media.

    If a female character then starts a relationship with a male character it's often the male who gets the blame. He's deemed "unworthy" and will suffer for it. Sooner or later that fan who had strong opinions about said relationship finds his way into the company. Editorial, writer, artist. Lately we have seen the focus on females from x-men(witch in itself is great), the downside is that old paramours and characters associated with them suffer. Betsy-Warren(wiped clean), Scott(almost a different character)-Jean, Rouge-Gambit(Milligan-Carey), Collossus without Kitty, well possessed by a demon.

    If we apply a formula from mangas about relationships: male hero is suppose to be easy to sympathize with, so we can create a vantage point. Females are complex, interesting and different. So we can care about them. While not so clear and generalized it has it's truths in X-men too.
    That might be true for other franchises, but X-fans have a higher number of female and LGBT readers. In fact I'd argue it's the opposite in most cases. They relate more to the females than idolize them as what they'd want in a partner. It's why they're (imho) better characters and have more presence than females from other franchises, because they seem more realistic with their own flaws and motivations instead of cardboard cut-outs with boobs.

    And I disagree on males getting the blame in relationships. I see a lot of slut slamming done on the females, less so on the males. Most of time I'm turned off from the romance aspect of comics, since it seems less about the chemistry between the characters and motivations on why they'd be attracted to each other, than about propping up the male character's ego and to use the relationship to feed into their development.

    The only time I've seen the male get the short-end of the stick recently is with Gambit and Rogue. But Rogue was then used to prop up Magneto.
    Last edited by RoguefanAM; 02-02-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  7. #247
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilishRogue View Post
    So judging by this thread, kitchen hijinks determine how interesting a female character is. As someone who cooks I still find this... odd.

    Or the above comment was in reference to the page long discussion of Broccoli and Brusstle Sprouts.
    No, its just that females are only more interesting in their natural environment...

  8. #248
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    I have nothing against men, it's just that they don't make good characters.

  9. #249

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    Someone should write about how sexually frustrated X-MEN get when they're stuck in space/dimensions/hell with hot chicks/guys who won't have sex with them. Such an important male issue put on the back burner. Do they pack a hustler in their little belt pockets as a contingency plan? Reed Richards must have factored that in to his unstable molecule costumes, right?
    Last edited by Foon4000; 02-02-2013 at 11:15 AM.

  10. #250
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_888 View Post
    Male characters often suffer because male readers and writers project on them. They have to carry the burden of whatever has happened in real life. Everyone has some guy they hated/disliked. The bully, the charmer who "stole" "your" girl, the smarter guy, the stronger, the social genius and so on.
    Agree, in part. Most of the staff is male so they assume most readers are male. That may not necessarily be true these days. As another poster stated, there are far more female and LGBT readers around.
    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_888 View Post
    Female characters can on the other hand be idolized. All the things we want in a girl will be projected onto these characters. They will understand you, see you in the crowd, be perfect.
    Which makes them almost impossible to relate to or identify with in any real sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_888 View Post
    If a female character then starts a relationship with a male character it's often the male who gets the blame. He's deemed "unworthy" and will suffer for it.
    Disagree, in part. Writers may have the male acting like a jerk, but female characters are still frequently identified with or used to prop male characters. Scott/Jean proved to be waaay more development for Scott than Jean. When Q came into office, he apparently didn't like Scott following Jean like a puppy (she wore the pants in that relationship) so into the picture comes Emma. Though characterized as a teenaged boy's centrefold ideal, before Scott, she'd also been a strong woman. No more. She was an arm ornament. Wolverine/Jean proved to develop Wolverine. What was Meggan without Captain Britain in the end? Warren/Betsy defined one another as did Colossus and Kitty. The exceptions are Rogue and Storm, two of the most pushed female X-men. Their relationships were all about the women.

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_888 View Post
    If we apply a formula from mangas about relationships: male hero is suppose to be easy to sympathize with, so we can create a vantage point. Females are complex, interesting and different.
    Therein lies a problem. If only the males are written in such a way to sympathize or identify with-- a POV character -- and the women are put above them, then there is no realism to female characters, only an ideal.

  11. #251
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    Edit: Double post.
    Last edited by DevilishRogue; 02-02-2013 at 11:23 PM.

  12. #252
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    So, male posters are admitting men are boring? I'm impressed with the humility.

    What I find equally interesting is how so many use female characters as their POV and think the men suck. The egos you must have, lol.

  13. #253
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilishRogue View Post
    So, male posters are admitting men are boring? I'm impressed with the humility.

    What I find equally interesting is how so many use female characters as their POV and think the men suck. The egos you must have, lol.
    Maybe in the end, a lot of readers like their Mary-Sues. /shrug No one is more beautiful, can fight better, is more of a hero, has people fawning over her, etc, etc.

    A couple of other posters mentioned that it seems to be a popular trend lately, to belittle male characters while supporting female ones. Maybe that's the gist of it.

  14. #254
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    this thread needs more wildcdhild.
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Maybe in the end, a lot of readers like their Mary-Sues. /shrug No one is more beautiful, can fight better, is more of a hero, has people fawning over her, etc, etc.

    A couple of other posters mentioned that it seems to be a popular trend lately, to belittle male characters while supporting female ones. Maybe that's the gist of it.
    Yeah, its like inserting yourself in a bad mary or marty sue fic but its different when its your marty/mary stu/sue. As if your favorite character wont suffer like Wolverine because well, its their favorite character and they are awesome just like them, lol.

    I really cant stand pop culture type feminism sometimes. "We are the best all the time everywhere ever! Rrrawr." There's very little substance. I mean if we are that insecure we might as well be men. Already the first issue in Ro's big concern is her man troubles and not that she was pissed at Logan or the state of the X-Men. Obviously the mark of a good leader is having sex with the guy who has been treacherous to the X-Men. Sigh. But, I don't think Marvel knows how to do equality outside of evening the score, but that seems more human in general. The people on here are supposedly pro-woman but I side-eye the hell out of it since they put such high standards on female characters as to whether the character is chunkier under this artist, what type of boots she wheres who deserves the hottest (stupid) male. I even wonder if they like their favorites for their actual personalities. Its kind of like saying the Miss America contest is pro-woman. >>

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