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  1. #16
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    @ Auguste Dupin

    Thanks for the info which reminded me of the Infinite Crisis crossover within the Superman comics (Superman 226, Action 836, and Adventures 649) which shows the differences in the methods of GA Superman (although unfortunately) with Post-Crisis Superman. What's common between them is they both want to do what's right. But if you take what's not positive about their character to the EXTREME logical conclusion their actions will lead to a disaster. It's unfortunate that during COIE GA Supes and SA Supes almost had the same personality. Maybe that's what Miller was going for with Superman in DKR. If you took the Establishment character of SA Superman to the extreme that's how he'll turn out.

    @ jllonchas and @ Lois

    Of course, I should just look at the opening sequence of All-Star Superman and the basic/fundamentals about Superman is already there. Thanks.

    @ Kurosawa

    I notice that you too have in depth knowledge about Superman. Was the transition/break from the GA Supes to SA Supes an easier pill to swallow rather than the SA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes? I mean looking at GA Supes and SA Supes was there still a salient feature that tells you: "that's Superman," as opposed to the SA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes that tells you: "that's not Superman." And maybe to make it more complicated, was there something salient about GA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes that tells you: "that is/that is not Superman." You can also pitch in your ideas about the other eras of Superman like the New-52 if you like.

    Others are also free to respond. Thanks.
    Last edited by mos; 02-01-2013 at 06:04 AM.

  2. #17
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mos View Post
    @ Auguste Dupin

    Thanks for the info which reminded me of the Infinite Crisis crossover within the Superman comics (Superman 226, Action 836, and Adventures 649) which shows the differences in the methods of GA Superman (although unfortunately) with Post-Crisis Superman. What's common between them is they both want to do what's right. But if you take what's not positive about their character to the EXTREME logical conclusion their actions will lead to a disaster. It's unfortunate that during COIE GA Supes and SA Supes almost had the same personality. Maybe that's what Miller was going for with Superman in DKR. If you took the Establishment character of SA Superman to the extreme that's how he'll turn out.

    @ jllonchas and @ Lois

    Of course, I should just look at the opening sequence of All-Star Superman and the basic/fundamentals about Superman is already there. Thanks.

    @ Kurosawa

    I notice that you too have in depth knowledge about Superman. Was the transition/break from the GA Supes to SA Supes an easier pill to swallow rather than the SA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes? I mean looking at GA Supes and SA Supes was there still a salient feature that tells you: "that's Superman," as opposed to the SA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes that tells you: "that's not Superman." And maybe to make it more complicated, was there something salient about GA Supes and Post-Crisis Supes that tells you: "that/that is not Superman." You can also pitch in your ideas about the other eras of Superman like the New-52 if you like.

    Others are also free to respond. Thanks.
    The transition from Golden Age through the flux era (late 40's to late 50's) and finally to the Silver Age Superman was much easier to accept because it was done gradually, not all at once, and there was never a declaration from DC that the older stories were stupid and silly, like they did with the 86 reboot. Plus once the Multiverse was revealed, the Golden Age stories were still in continuity and still canon on Earth-Two. Compare that with Post-Crisis which took all previous stories and threw them away. From 1986-on NOT A SINGLE JERRY SIEGEL SUPERMAN STORY HAS BEEN CANON. That is complete and total crap. That's now actually true of all DC characters-none of their creators stories are canon at all, but it started with Superman. DC has a pathological hatred and shame of their past that is very very unfortunate. Marvel at least throws older fans a bone by keeping up the pretense that the characters in their books now are the same characters as the ones from the past. You could make an argument that what Marvel does is worse though, because they are not the same characters or even close.

    Marvel actually has explained some of their retcons, most notably in Steve Englehart's Fantastic Four run. Franklin Richards altered history basically.
    Last edited by Kurosawa; 01-29-2013 at 06:16 AM.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  3. #18
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    But you are quite satisfied with the New-52 Superman since he also exists because of another reboot? Which unfortunately (or fortunately for others) also erased the Post-Crisis. I can understand where you are coming from about your sentiments with reboots since I felt that way when BirthRight came along (I know others want to call it a retcon but that's not really how I look at it). But with the changes with regard to Superman across the Ages you still recognize him as essentially Superman? You know, like other characters like Supreme, Mr. Majestic, or Samaritan which when you see them your first thought will be; "that's Superman." I guess I really want to pinpoint that something about Superman that we "know" it's him even if he's draped in other costume like the three I mentioned above. I think if we can recognize that "something" maybe we'll find a way to inform the writers and we'll have less disgruntled Superman fans. I think Superman fans are one of the hardest to please because writers don't get that "something/essence" of Superman. But almost all of us agree that Action Comics 775 got it right, right?

  4. #19
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mos View Post
    Did this cause so much controversy between GA fans and SA fans?
    No. Because there was very little crossover. Back then, there was almost complete audience turnover every few years. Kids grew out of comics, and comics were continually aimed at the new audience coming in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lois View Post
    Yes.
    Jor-el and Lara as his parents too.
    His parents weren't named at first. And his dad was originally named Jor-L.

  5. #20
    Read my mind. Lois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    His parents weren't named at first. And his dad was originally named Jor-L.
    Thanks for the clarification. :)

  6. #21
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    During the Pre-COIE era, we had the Golden and Silver Age Superman coexisting on different planes of the original DC Multiverse. They met periodically to fight off common enemies, but it's a shame that we got precious few moments of the two spending quiet moments together comparing their experiences, worldviews, and approaches. We got a few moments of this in COIE itself, and they were among the best characterization moments of an otherwise plot- and action-driven story.

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    faze (v.): to cause to be disturbed or disconcerted; to stun

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    a stage in a process of change or development

    Get it right, people.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mos View Post
    But you are quite satisfied with the New-52 Superman since he also exists because of another reboot? Which unfortunately (or fortunately for others) also erased the Post-Crisis. I can understand where you are coming from about your sentiments with reboots since I felt that way when BirthRight came along (I know others want to call it a retcon but that's not really how I look at it). But with the changes with regard to Superman across the Ages you still recognize him as essentially Superman? You know, like other characters like Supreme, Mr. Majestic, or Samaritan which when you see them your first thought will be; "that's Superman." I guess I really want to pinpoint that something about Superman that we "know" it's him even if he's draped in other costume like the three I mentioned above. I think if we can recognize that "something" maybe we'll find a way to inform the writers and we'll have less disgruntled Superman fans. I think Superman fans are one of the hardest to please because writers don't get that "something/essence" of Superman. But almost all of us agree that Action Comics 775 got it right, right?
    I am happier with the DCnU Superman than I was with the Post-Crisis version, although the Post-Crisis version from Birthright-on was somewhat closer to Pre-Crisis and I was actually enjoying the books right before the reboot.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Cypher-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, when people make the distinction between the Golden Age and the Silver Age, by Golden Age they mean the early years of the concept, when Superman was believed to be an urban legend by most of the population, couldn't fly, was hunted down by the police, disguised himself a lot, and had the habbit of -when seeing a mine owner obviously exploiting his employees- to trap said mine owner, blocked the entrance, gave the guy a shovel, and said "dig" just to show him what his men live through. So the whole "be friendly" really depends on who Superman was talking about. In these stories, it wasn't unusual at all for criminals interrogated by Superman to have heart attacks. That's what most people mean by "Golden Age". Just like, when most people talk about Golden Age Batman, they mostly mean the early pre-Robin stories where he was legitimately scary and had a gun, despite that period lasting for about a year.
    So, yeah, the first 8 issues of Morrison are actually very close to what these early stories were all about. If anything, Morrison's early Superman is actually softer than this guy (as in, doesn't litteraly scare people to death).
    Well its not that its not Golden Age inspired. Thats not the issue. I acknowledge that it is and has the same themes at the start. Mainly with the social issues. But thats really it. It IS still very much Morrisons' creation (the guys writing it). From the way he looks, situations, and what not. But like I said thats not even the issue. Its just using that as a crappy argument to bash anything before and I wasnt just singling out Morrisons, its just a trend with the reboot in general and people. If anything Morrisons' is the least problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mos View Post
    @ Cypher-Z

    Wow! Thanks for a well-thought response. I've never been into SA Superman but now that you mentioned it, how he used his powers in Maggin's novel really say something about who Clark/Superman is. And I never got into Superman just punching his way out of a problem. I can't remember who said it in this board, but some Superman stories could be like Herculean stories. Hercules did not just punch the Hydra or Lion of Nemea. And you're right, I think the essence of Superman for me no matter what the Age is he's the hero who's going to do what's right. And if he's around people feel safer because he'll be on the watch and catch us when we fall (according to Morrison).

    Maybe if you can recommend "definitive" Superman stories in the Golden Age and Silver Age which I can look into I would greatly appreciate it. As I mentioned earlier I'm really into Post-Crisis Superman so I want to understand my favorite character even more. I'm hoping to write a fan fiction about Superman someday which captures his grandeur in all eras (if I have time) that's why I keep on trying to distill WHO he is, find a common thread, and try to embrace all the differences (if that is ever possible).
    No problem. I also very much agree with that first paragraph. Superman isnt anything without his other half, its one half powers, the other half personality.

    In terms of what to read of the Golden Age stories its always best to go with the DC Archives. Since the Golden Age stories were always a 'done in one' thing. Quality pretty good and they usually contain a massive amount of stories in them (15 stories or so). Theres the Superman and Action Comics archives.

    I personally recommend Action Comics Archives Vol 3. this is when villains start appearing regularly, and its turning more into the sci-fi we all know and love. Superman has his iconic powers set (x-ray vision, flying, wind breath, super hearing), by now he has his signature iconic suit and muscular appearance. This is when Superman has officially arrived in my opinion and vintage. Theres plenty of action and still fighting of corruption. He's still has the straight to business attitude. And its before WWII really got influence into Superman too (though theirs still a couple of stories in it). Its Golden Age Superman at its finest in my opinion.

    I own the DC Archives for Superman Vol 1. too. If youre really interested in the early days and development then I'd say check it out, its mostly roughing up thugs, corrupt in power, and what not. Not anything super in the sense of advisory or situation. His costume and powers aren't finalized as yet unlike in Action Archives 3. Those two should cover the early days and give you a sense.

    For Silver Age I have Superman In The Fifties. Has all the memorable silver age artists, Boring, Swan, Schaffenberger. Has a good collection of stories from all 10 years and gives you a good sense of the Superman family that was pretty big and important without it straying from Superman being the main feature. Gives you a lot of first introductions. Bizarro, Krypto, Brainiac (first appearance if I remember correctly), are all in it. The Sci-fi is in full swing and things get really creative, situations involving more brains than brawn are in the mix. Good humor and wit too.

    I really think that should sum it all up, for good collections atleast.

  9. #24
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    @ Lois

    Yeah, I missed that too.

    @ Buried Allen

    I also wanted more interaction between GA and SA Supes in COIE. I felt that that there was not enough to explore more personality distinctions between the two. At least, they were not handled like Batman where he had to focus on crowd control (and hope for the best when the big guns went out for the final battle). How the times have changed.

    @ Kurosawa

    I'm reading your responses in the posts: "what you like" and "what you hate" about the new-52 Superman to be able to flesh out what you think is the salient feature/s of Superman through the times.

    @ Cypher-Z

    Thanks for all the recommended readings. I hope I can get my hands into those someday. I am so excited to read them.

  10. #25
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    DC Comics Presents Annual 1 has a great GA/SA Superman team-up. It does focus on how their lives are different. Mostly, around how GA Supes let Lois in and how they really work well together and SA Superman and Lois are having problems.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovelikewinter View Post
    DC Comics Presents Annual 1 has a great GA/SA Superman team-up. It does focus on how their lives are different. Mostly, around how GA Supes let Lois in and how they really work well together and SA Superman and Lois are having problems.
    Thanks a lot for the suggestion. Anyway aside from the difference for you what was common between the characterization of GA and SA Superman in that story (not counting the powers or having Lois as important aspects of their lives for example)?

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