The excessive grimness of Nightwing and Batgirl

[Bluebow]

Not all comics have to be grim and gritty to address serious issues. A seemingly superficial example featuring Barbara Gordon as Batgirl from just a few years ago was the Batman Confidential story "The Cat and the Bat". For anyone that has not read it, it was about Catwoman stealing a notebook belonging to Commisioner Gordon from Barbara Gordon when she was trying to decipher the code that it was written in. There followed a chase story with the inexperienced Batgirl and the more seasoned Catwoman with first one then the other having the upperhand. Although some people might dismiss this story as simple or even exploitative due to the sequence where Catwoman hides out in a nudist club where she thinks that the younger Batgirl will be too prudish to follow her but she does and they fight over the notebook. In fact it does deal with some important issues such as Batgirl finding out how far she is prepared to to go to complete a mission, such as going nude and later kissing a repulsive villain, how she deals with a more experienced and wily opponent and about learning to trust and work with such a person.There is also the reason that Catwoman steals the notebook, which is to secure the release of a young woman from the hands of human traffickers. By the end of the story Batgirl has learned a few things about herself as well as crime fighting and what's more she has fun doing it. It is about her increasing maturity and experience, all presented in a seemingly lighthearted way, just contemplate the grim and depressing way that subject matter might be approached now.

[Brave Sir Robbin]

Okay, then why do I like the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, FF, Bone, and Ame-Comi Girls comics?

Try Courtney Crumrin. It rules. Tween girl with attitude raised by her great uncle an evil? wizard. It's way better written than most DC stuff.

But back to the Dick and Babs. At least if you are a Batgirl fan, you know that this aborted story line is over and Simone will be back in a couple of issues.

Nightwing has gotten catastrophically worse after COO and only looks to get even more pathetic. Nightwing is the first "non superhero" superhero. He never wins, gets the snot beat out of him, everything he touches gets destroyed, and everyone he knows dies. What the hell is the point of his book. Is DC branching into a new category called super victim? I didn't notice it at the time but Nightwing jumped the shark when he decided to buy Amusement Mile. It can only get worse.

[SpadesSlick]

The funniest part of this is that the traditional grimdark robin has the most lighthearted book in the line.

[batGRRRl4ever]

Hmm, well, since Nightwing and Batgirl are my two favorite non-Batman specific bat-books, I certainly can't agree with the premise of this thread.

I say the same as a fan of the Batgirl title.

Okay, then why do I like the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, FF, Bone, and Ame-Comi Girls comics?

I'm a fan of BOTH the Batgirl comic and Ame-Comi Girls. It's fun to see different takes on the same character.

[Punter23]

I am going to say this again maybe the reason is the tie ins. Cause I read the earlier Nightwing issues and they aren't grim or dark.

[Godlike13]

I am going to say this again maybe the reason is the tie ins. Cause I read the earlier Nightwing issues and they aren't grim or dark.

Umm they kind of are, im mean they're all not that dark, but they get pretty dark and noticeably gory. Lots of blood and gore, and a good deal of death. But i don't really blame all that on the writing, i think the art has a lot to do with it too. Last issue by far was the darkest though.

[Bluebow]

I'm a fan of BOTH the Batgirl comic and Ame-Comi Girls. It's fun to see different takes on the same character.

It is interesting to see what the Ame-Comi Girls get away with in terms of costume and other things because they are drawn in a 'cute' style that might draw complaints if they were depicted in a more 'realistic' fashion.So maybe the art as much as the writing gives the impression of grimness or otherwise.

[Phantom Blot]

I agree with the original sentiment. I was delighted at the return of Barbara Gordon to her Batgirl role, just about all I approved of from the New 52, but I have been increasingly disappointed in her new book. It's grim and dreary and depressing. That's not the Batgirl I know or want to read about. I find each issue harder and harder to read through (as quickly as possible) and the last few issues in particular have just been awfful. It this wasn't Batgirl/Barbara, I'd have dropped the title long ago. As it is, I don't have high hopes for the new writer coming in and I am sick of the new Joker's maniacal routine and sick of female characters in particular being routinely subjected to torture and abuse and faux melodramatics. Lazy writing, gruesome art, pointless stories. If this is all DC can offer, I'm going to be out of contemporary comics soon (again). More Batgirl/Robin Year 1 or The Bat and the Cat style adventuring and characterization for me. If I want to wallow in horror, I'll read the news.

[Punter23]

Umm they kind of are, im mean they're all not that dark, but they get pretty dark and noticeably gory. Lots of blood and gore, and a good deal of death. But i don't really blame all that on the writing, i think the art has a lot to do with it too. Last issue by far was the darkest though.

I didn't find them dark and gory. I just think the grimness that everyone is talking about is kind of associated with all these events. Just get him away from events and see what happens for a while, then we can judge fairly.

[mrrightnow]

I hope after facing Joker and James Jr Batgirl will finally grow out of the PTSDness of it all and become fun again. Simone has proven she can write fun with Birds of Prey and I hope we see more of that.

Are you reading Batgirl? The series has already covered several months since Batgirl's return. She is now over her PTSD and is now getting hard-assed and vengeful.

[Bluebow]

Are you reading Batgirl? The series has already covered several months since Batgirl's return. She is now over her PTSD and is now getting hard-assed and vengeful.

That is because it is currently dealing with The Joker, she would be in vengeful mode and she is still not thinking tactically enough and keeping emotions out of combat situations and making errors because of it. I am sure the PTSD will return when convenient to the plot.

[sunofdarkchild]

That is because it is currently dealing with The Joker, she would be in vengeful mode and she is still not thinking tactically enough and keeping emotions out of combat situations and making errors because of it. I am sure the PTSD will return when convenient to the plot.

To be fair, her mistakes are about as dumb as Batman's have been. Granted there's no excuse for either of them to be this stupid, but she's in what they call 'good company.'

[Bluebow]

To be fair, her mistakes are about as dumb as Batman's have been. Granted there's no excuse for either of them to be this stupid, but she's in what they call 'good company.'

Yes, but in the flashback scene at the start of the last issue of Batgirl she claimed to be able to tell what her therapist was writing about her by the movements of the pen. This when she was still in the initial recovery stages of being shot and was reasonably supposed to be depressed and inward looking. OK it was not a combat situation, but it showed a situational awareness that she no longer seems to possess.

[The Lucky One]

Are you reading Batgirl? The series has already covered several months since Batgirl's return. She is now over her PTSD and is now getting hard-assed and vengeful.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like he wasn't so much complaining specifically about the PTSD as about the overall hard-assed, vengeful tone. Simone can write dark humor (Secret Six), but she can also do more pure fun, lighthearted, less serious books, like Deadpool/Agent X. It sounds like he's wishing for more of the latter and less of the former.

I have absolutely nothing to back this up other than suspicion, but I would venture to guess that Simone may have been given specific instructions that TPTB wanted a more serious, less lighthearted Batgirl book. After the previous book "failed" with that take, it's entirely possible she was told "some humor is fine, but we want this to be a more adult book. Make it your own, of course, but try to veer more in the vein of what Scott Snyder is doing." Again, that's based on absolutely zero evidence, just my opinon. But it wouldn't exactly shock me.

-D

[Bluebow]

I could be wrong, but it sounds like he wasn't so much complaining specifically about the PTSD as about the overall hard-assed, vengeful tone. Simone can write dark humor (Secret Six), but she can also do more pure fun, lighthearted, less serious books, like Deadpool/Agent X. It sounds like he's wishing for more of the latter and less of the former.

I have absolutely nothing to back this up other than suspicion, but I would venture to guess that Simone may have been given specific instructions that TPTB wanted a more serious, less lighthearted Batgirl book. After the previous book "failed" with that take, it's entirely possible she was told "some humor is fine, but we want this to be a more adult book. Make it your own, of course, but try to veer more in the vein of what Scott Snyder is doing." Again, that's based on absolutely zero evidence, just my opinon. But it wouldn't exactly shock me.

-D

I think Gail Simone would probably write comedy better in an ensemble book like BOP, as at the moment Batgirl has no one to share a joke with and some of her self deprecating thoughts that might be intended to replace that don't always work. Also while Stephanie Brown's Batgirl could be clumsy and make mistakes, she was not supposed to be a near genius or as well trained as Barbara, she was the girl who never gives up and usually succeded eventually, Barbara has to be written somewhat differently. I agree that Gail Simone can write 'dark' or even disturbing as in the sequence in BOP where Oracle deliberately broke the ankle of Misfit in a combination of punishment and science experiment.