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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    Please don't start with the "not a real fan" comments to those who like different Superman takes/aspects/stories than you...we get enough of that from another poster.
    Okay I'll admit it was stupid of me to make that comment. I said it in anger because if your going to name one ability stupid then you might as well call all his super abilities stupid. But that does not condone what I said and I'm sorry.

    And onto the subject, if Superman and Wonder Woman have to suffer the worf effect just to make Aquaman seem cool then I'm okay with it. So long as they don't over do it like they do with batman.

  2. #92
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    See, I dont buy that. You dont have to screw with the usual treatment of a character to make another one cool.

    Orin doesnt have to be on their power level to be cool. I mean, Spider-Man is cool, and he's no where near the level Clark or Diana are. Its not a problem there, shouldnt be a problem with Orin.

    Just look at the opening pages of Aquaman #1. He crushes a getaway truck, leaps tall buildings, brushes off being shot at, and all of it with no water in sight. That was cool. He doesnt need to punch Clark a block away to prove he's hardcore.

  3. #93
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    I really don't know the dense musculature from the ocean floor argument works anyway. Are there any actual animals who have that adaptation. My impression was most deep ocean dwellers are soft bodied.
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  4. #94
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    See, I dont buy that. You dont have to screw with the usual treatment of a character to make another one cool.

    Orin doesnt have to be on their power level to be cool. I mean, Spider-Man is cool, and he's no where near the level Clark or Diana are. Its not a problem there, shouldnt be a problem with Orin.

    Just look at the opening pages of Aquaman #1. He crushes a getaway truck, leaps tall buildings, brushes off being shot at, and all of it with no water in sight. That was cool. He doesnt need to punch Clark a block away to prove he's hardcore.
    Agreed. Peter David did an awesome run without a power upgrade.

    Certainly nobody feels jipped that Wolverine can't beat the Hulk in arm wrestling.
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  5. #95
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    I'm not swallowing the power-level of the "new" Aquaman being equal to Wonder Woman's! Before the New52 there was NEVER any indication that Aquaman's power level was near Wonder Woman's or Superman's! When they had that DC v. Marvel mini-series where he faced the Sub-Mariner, they didn't lock up physically where we could have seen how he matched up with Namor! He won with his ability to control sea-animals, an ability that Namor doesn't have. No, this is all just part of DC's trying to write Sub-Mariner-type stories without having access to the real thing! Heck, in recent years Aquaman has demonstrated a low tolerance of humanity's polluting the seas and ruthless over-fishing--gee, that sounds awful familiar--I wonder why?!
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  6. #96
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    I'm not swallowing the power-level of the "new" Aquaman being equal to Wonder Woman's! Before the New52 there was NEVER any indication that Aquaman's power level was near Wonder Woman's or Superman's! When they had that DC v. Marvel mini-series where he faced the Sub-Mariner, they didn't lock up physically where we could have seen how he matched up with Namor! He won with his ability to control sea-animals, an ability that Namor doesn't have. No, this is all just part of DC's trying to write Sub-Mariner-type stories without having access to the real thing! Heck, in recent years Aquaman has demonstrated a low tolerance of humanity's polluting the seas and ruthless over-fishing--gee, that sounds awful familiar--I wonder why?!
    I very, very much doubt that DC is trying exceptionally hard to copy Namor. I mean, really, Namor??? Yeah, top of the "cool pile" there.

    Peter David gave Orin an attitude in the 90's, but that had more to do with the attitude of the 90's moreso than anything else. And Orin's attitude was more akin to Logan's than Namor's anyway.

    Oh, and the "pollution" thing has been going on a long, long time. Im fairly sure that Orin has had a problem with that since the world at large realized it was a problem.

    I do still agree that he's not anywhere near Clark's power levels, and not Diana's traditional levels either, though I admit since the reboot there is some wiggle room for argument there.

    And in case you didnt know that whole DC vs Marvel thing was decided by fan vote, so it doesnt hold a lot of water.

    Wait, did I just make a bad pun?

  7. #97

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    Officially, Aquaman has the strength of 100 men. Wonder Woman, by comparison, is a demigod, and probably considerably stronger. Aquaman could definitely give her a run for her money, and hurt her, but in terms of pure physical strength, I'd say Diana is the safer bet.

  8. #98
    Tantu Terrific! Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Agreed. Peter David did an awesome run without a power upgrade.

    Certainly nobody feels jipped that Wolverine can't beat the Hulk in arm wrestling.
    Channeling my very best Natalie Portman: PAD's Aquaman was . . . *perfect*

    Especially his use of the mythology--he used Atlantis and the magic in the coolest way ever! And he mined Aquaman's RICH undersea world and supporting characters.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 02-02-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    I very, very much doubt that DC is trying exceptionally hard to copy Namor. I mean, really, Namor??? Yeah, top of the "cool pile" there.
    Marvel has done extraordinarily well with the cool factor for Namor in the last decade or so. He was a MAJOR player in the Marvel Universe in a way that Aquaman has not prior to this new universe for DC. If the power upgrade is followed, that will also be in alignment with Namor who was by Marvel's old scale Class 80. On the surface it looks a lot like that is the trajectory particularly considering the massive increase in power. Using Marvel's scale, Clark and Diana were 100+ (open ended with indefinite reserves to call upon) and Arthur was nowhere near that (not comparable or competitive--another poster in this thread said that Diana would know she had been in a fight with him however I must disagree though for the current version that looks true).

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Over in Action comics, Lois was injured. In a matter of minutes, Superman read every surgical text in a medical library, came back and used his powers to perform the surgery. One of the dumbest ass things I've read in awhile.
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    Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. I find this SuperAquaman kinda silly - there was no reason to jack up his powers to the extent where he's giving Superman and Wonder Woman a run for their money in a stand up fight. Having him go one on one with one of Diana's greatest villains was just insulting as well. 'Diana, you can't handle her so just toss her in the water and I'll take care of everything.'
    Actually the reason to make him just as powerful as Supes and WW was so there could be dramatic tension and not having a threat be over with in 5 seconds after Supes bitchslapped Aquaman to China.

    Geoff Johns seems to think upping the power level somehow makes Aquaman cool. What makes him work in this incarnation, for me at least, is how they're acknowledging in the book itself what the fans have said about him. Having characters in the book that think he's a lame hero who talks to fish works pretty well.
    Johns thinks that bringing the average person's thoughts on Aquaman being lame to the DCu and making him exceed their expectations. Worked pretty well.

    As to good story writing, I think a story where Superman spends five days bench pressing the planet is just a stupid, bad story. It's only there to say how ridiculous his strength is, which makes it even more goofy when Aquaman is knocking him on his butt in another book.
    Well it's a good thing that wasn't the story.

    Overall, I think the nu52 was a great opportunity that was squandered by a lack of coordination between editors and writers. Starting all over should have involved someone somewhere creating a basic 'bible' for each character so that the writers could be consistent across the board. Instead, it seems they did just the opposite and told all the writers to go do their own thing, resulting in these gaps in powers and personalities between different books.
    You'd prefer if DC had stricter editorial? That makes no sense at all. DC editorial has way too much control over writers and won't let them tell the stories they want to tell. Morrison wanted to writer Steph and Cass but he couldn't. DC denied the world's greatest comic book writer the right to write two great characters but was denied from some BS reason. Hopefully they'll allow Morrison to go nuts on Multiversity and WW: Earth One but in main continuity, even he's tied down. Quite frankly power levels don't mean feces and they shouldn't be a pressing issue. They should be in the background of good stories.

  11. #101
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Marvel has done extraordinarily well with the cool factor for Namor in the last decade or so. He was a MAJOR player in the Marvel Universe in a way that Aquaman has not prior to this new universe for DC. If the power upgrade is followed, that will also be in alignment with Namor who was by Marvel's old scale Class 80. On the surface it looks a lot like that is the trajectory particularly considering the massive increase in power. Using Marvel's scale, Clark and Diana were 100+ (open ended with indefinite reserves to call upon) and Arthur was nowhere near that (not comparable or competitive--another poster in this thread said that Diana would know she had been in a fight with him however I must disagree though for the current version that looks true).
    I still am not sure if Orin has really been upgraded power-wise. So far, I have not really seen him do anything he has never done before. I've seen him punch Clark in the face, and go a round or two with Diana. Its been a while, but still.

    I think its that so many writers have treated him like he's just a guy who can breath under water and talk to fish, when someone actually writes him properly, at his full potential, it catches us off guard. David's Aquaman, again, was just as strong and (more) hardcore than what we've seen from Johns thus far.

    As for Namor, whatever you say. I still disagree. He may have a big role in the Marvel U, but he cant hold down his own title, doesnt sell merchandise, isnt a well known name, and his attitude is far more "arrogant nobility" than "quietly brooding outsider," which is how Orin has been written more often than not. I maintain that if DC was trying to have Orin copy anyone, especially in the 90's, it was Wolverine. But its really a non-issue and outside the purview of this particular thread, so lets agree to disagree.

  12. #102
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    I still am not sure if Orin has really been upgraded power-wise. So far, I have not really seen him do anything he has never done before. I've seen him punch Clark in the face, and go a round or two with Diana. Its been a while, but still.

    I think its that so many writers have treated him like he's just a guy who can breath under water and talk to fish, when someone actually writes him properly, at his full potential, it catches us off guard. David's Aquaman, again, was just as strong and (more) hardcore than what we've seen from Johns thus far.

    As for Namor, whatever you say. I still disagree. He may have a big role in the Marvel U, but he cant hold down his own title, doesnt sell merchandise, isnt a well known name, and his attitude is far more "arrogant nobility" than "quietly brooding outsider," which is how Orin has been written more often than not. I maintain that if DC was trying to have Orin copy anyone, especially in the 90's, it was Wolverine. But its really a non-issue and outside the purview of this particular thread, so lets agree to disagree.
    Namor's all over the place as a supporting player, but you're right, he hasn't held his own title. Probably because there hasn't been any work done on his rogues gallery- which is filled with lame-ass characters with no identifiable iconography as opposed to Aquaman who has Black Manta, Ocean Master and even a Mxylpyx rip-off among them.

    Aquaman has definitely had a strength boost as well. I'd put him comfortably at class 80 now. Namor should be class 80, close to Class 100 (?) when freshly hydrated (not 100 + imho) since he can throw down with the likes of the Hulk, Thor, and Hercules, but for example Thor beats him all the time, even in the water, so he's not Thor class even when wet (angry Hulk, who can get to 100 + would also do the same). Wonder Woman should be confortably a class 100, maybe 100 + in "God Mode". That's how I'd like to see Superman as well, class 100 baseline, 100 + with a sundip.
    Last edited by Zagreus; 02-03-2013 at 01:05 PM.

  13. #103
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    I very, very much doubt that DC is trying exceptionally hard to copy Namor. I mean, really, Namor??? Yeah, top of the "cool pile" there.

    Peter David gave Orin an attitude in the 90's, but that had more to do with the attitude of the 90's moreso than anything else. And Orin's attitude was more akin to Logan's than Namor's anyway.

    Oh, and the "pollution" thing has been going on a long, long time. Im fairly sure that Orin has had a problem with that since the world at large realized it was a problem.

    I do still agree that he's not anywhere near Clark's power levels, and not Diana's traditional levels either, though I admit since the reboot there is some wiggle room for argument there.

    And in case you didnt know that whole DC vs Marvel thing was decided by fan vote, so it doesnt hold a lot of water.

    Wait, did I just make a bad pun?
    Okay, I forgot about the 90s era of bad-assery! But YES, NAMOR IS NEAR THE TOP OF THE COOL-O-METER! He's always been one of my favorite characters. It's only this recent gneration of Marvel writers who don't really know anything about his legacy as the one of the original bad-boys of super-hero comics! Oh, and tell Aquaman that Namor wants his trident back!
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  14. #104
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    Namor's all over the place as a supporting player, but you're right, he hasn't held his own title. Probably because there hasn't been any work done on his rogues gallery- which is filled with lame-ass characters with no identifiable iconography as opposed to Aquaman who has Black Manta, Ocean Master and even a Mxylpyx rip-off among them.

    Aquaman has definitely had a strength boost as well. I'd put him comfortably at class 80 now. Namor should be class 80, close to Class 100 (?) when freshly hydrated (not 100 + imho) since he can throw down with the likes of the Hulk, Thor, and Hercules, but for example Thor beats him all the time, even in the water, so he's not Thor class even when wet (angry Hulk, who can get to 100 + would also do the same). Wonder Woman should be confortably a class 100, maybe 100 + in "God Mode". That's how I'd like to see Superman as well, class 100 baseline, 100 + with a sundip.
    Superman is so far above 100 it's sorta scary now. Wonder Woman is a good bit past 100 also. Aquaman is also past 100 too......but in the end powerlevels mean nothing in comics.

    All you need to know in this context is Superman is strongest (by a lot) Wonder Woman is very very very very strong and Aquaman is very very strong. But Superman still weighs 220 something lbs so if Aquaman who can lift a whole ocean liner punches Superman when he's not ready then yeah he should go flying pretty damn far........but is he hurt? No, just annoyed.



    Power levels mean nothing you just have to remember everyone's general role in the world and you're good........try thinking like a little kid again...it's helps.

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Channeling my very best Natalie Portman: PAD's Aquaman was . . . *perfect*

    Especially his use of the mythology--he used Atlantis and the magic in the coolest way ever! And he mined Aquaman's RICH undersea world and supporting characters.
    But he didn't. He retconned large portions of Orin's history including his parentage. He made the character synonymous with the excesses of the 90s with the harpoon hand, beard and nonsensical antiheroism.

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