Captain America: Why do you dislike him?

[gregyo]

Yeah, but that doesn't confirm that he was lying and only said that so he could tag along to Utopia to kill Hope. All that confirms is that he said that, and then went to Utopia.

Here's the thing, you can't really argue that Wolverine didn't deceive the Avengers, unless you argue that they knew he was going to try and kill Hope beforehand, which I don't think anybody would. And before you say anything, a lie by omission is still, in fact, a lie.

He got thrown out of a plane for it, remember?

[RDMacQ]

Here's the thing, you can't really argue that Wolverine didn't deceive the Avengers, unless you argue that they knew he was going to try and kill Hope beforehand, which I don't think anybody would. And before you say anything, a lie by omission is still, in fact, a lie.

He got thrown out of a plane for it, remember?

No. I CAN say that Wolvie didn't deceive the Avengers with what he told them about the Phoenix. The story doesn't state that he lied. And he got kicked off the plane not for his deception, but for his unwillingness to go along with Cap's plane.

If anyone wants to argue that he was lying, then you cough up the proof. That's how this works. You don't get to say "Well, you can't really argue that he WASN'T lying," and leave it at that. He's a fictional character. He can't do anything the writers don't tell him to do. And if the comic doesn't state that he was lying, then he wasn't lying. Simple as that.

[klinton]

I'm just saying there's nothing in the story itself that offers evidence that if Hope had just gotten the Phoenix Force on the moon instead of five people who weren't meant to have it that she would have destroyed the world. Conversely, considering the PF was doing just fine destroying planets without a host, why exactly did they think keeping Hope away from it would save the Earth? The whole premise of the conflict didn't make a damn bit of sense. This is why I don't "hate" any of the characters involved or consider any of them villains. It was just too stupid. I'm sure it's possible to do an event that does justice to the intelligence of the characters (and readers) and preestablished history and characterization, but I've yet to see it.

I think the point of the New Avengers tie-ins was to establish that she needed Peter's training to control the Phoenix. It was all done in images and metaphors, but I don't recall if it was blatantly stated. I did understand that much as I was reading it though.

As to the depriving it of the host, I interpreted Steve's intent to get her off world as an attempt to lure it away from earth. That he assumed it would follow her. Of course, getting her to the moon is kind of silly as it's kind of like hiding her just down the block. :p

[gregyo]

No. I CAN say that Wolvie didn't deceive the Avengers with what he told them about the Phoenix. The story doesn't state that he lied. And he got kicked off the plane not for his deception, but for his unwillingness to go along with Cap's plane.

If anyone wants to argue that he was lying, then you cough up the proof. That's how this works. You don't get to say "Well, you can't really argue that he WASN'T lying," and leave it at that. He's a fictional character. He can't do anything the writers don't tell him to do. And if the comic doesn't state that he was lying, then he wasn't lying. Simple as that.

So, your official stance is that Logan TOLD the Avengers he was going to murder Hope? Good to know.

I only ask because that's what you've been arguing.

I've already laid out the logic on how we know that Logan deceived the Avengers. Your denial means nothing.

Hell, at the VERY least, we know Logan lied to Cap later when he told Cap Hope needed to die. It is CANON that her death would have doomed the world. Sorry, friend.

[WinterSoldier76]

Cap is a military first and foremost, it's in his blood - he's a 'hero' second.

I don't agree with this statement at all.

Cap's heroism is what MAKES him such a good soldier / teammate / friend / leader.

[Mark_S]

I don't agree with this statement at all.

Cap's heroism is what MAKES him such a good soldier / teammate / friend / leader.

But what -if any- are the standards for heroism in the mu?

[WinterSoldier76]

But what -if any- are the standards for heroism in the mu?

I heroism is a universal quality, not exclusive to the MU.

[aNamored]

I dislike the current Captain America under Rick Remender for a lot of reasons: it's just a lot of inner dialog going back to standing up to bullies in the alleys of Brooklyn. I get no depth or feeling that Cap wants to do anything but survive. In his current situation, I don't buy that. It's too hollow a characterization, but Remender's fixated on Zola anyway so I'm not surprised.

I don't think Steve is perfect, nor do I think America is perfect (don't get me started), but I liked the idea of an inherently good character who stood for some of the past American ideals.

I haven't read AvX and won't, so I can't say I don't like Cap because of anything that happened there...I'm just disappointed, and sadly, not surprised.

[Mark_S]

I heroism is a universal quality, not exclusive to the MU.

I understand that, but in the mu what qualifies?

[klinton]

But what -if any- are the standards for heroism in the mu?

The same as in life: wanting to do the right thing, despite it's cost to you personally.

[marvell2100]

I like Cap and I love what remender is currently doing with him. This is what Steve is all about, overcoming insurmountable odds. And Remender is making Zola scary. I didn't think anybody could do that.

[celticguy]

But what -if any- are the standards for heroism in the mu?

I don't think there is one answer. Degrees maybe but not a box you can check off.

[Talisman]

I like Cap and I love what remender is currently doing with him. This is what Steve is all about, overcoming insurmountable odds. And Remender is making Zola scary. I didn't think anybody could do that.

This is sooo true. His Zola is the best I've seen in quite some time. I hope to see a return of Doughboy and have him be something wicked finally.

[RDMacQ]

So, your official stance is that Logan TOLD the Avengers he was going to murder Hope? Good to know.

No. It's my stance the character didn't do anything the comic said he didn't do.

I only ask because that's what you've been arguing.

No. I've been arguing that if you are going to argue something else happened, bring proof.

I've already laid out the logic on how we know that Logan deceived the Avengers. Your denial means nothing.

No, you've made claims that you haven't backed up, and made allusions to motivation and behavior where there were none.

Hell, at the VERY least, we know Logan lied to Cap later when he told Cap Hope needed to die. It is CANON that her death would have doomed the world. Sorry, friend.

Again, you're making connections where there are none.

Wolvie stating Hope had to die ISN'T a lie. He feels that she is too dangerous, given the information he has at the time.

Once she gets training, she is able to control the Phoenix.

The only way that argument can only work is if Wolverine KNEW that at some point in the future Hope would have been trained by the forces at K'un L'un and managed to be able to control the Phoenix, but willfully withheld that from the rest of the Avengers.

That would take a HELL of a lot of foreknowledge about what was going to happen.

Thinking she was a danger to the world isn't lying. You know why? Because he told Cap that she was a danger to the world. And made it clear what his plans would be. THAT'S why he got kicked off the plane. And you know why I know that? Because THAT was in the book.

[Daniel Mengsk]

I don't agree with this statement at all.

Cap's heroism is what MAKES him such a good soldier / teammate / friend / leader.

He was manufactured to be the perfect soldier, his whole character is a military one - he's the MIC given the form of a 'perfect hero', all dressed in American colors.