The suit - is DC sneaky?

[carabas]

Superman is The Justice leagues Tank, you don't send a Tank in without high DR armor, Supes' Armor in Indestructable. That's Legendary Gear. He raided a Bosses Dungeon (Collector's Ship) and Got some Epic Loot. Why would you have him give that up? What you want him to craft his own? Sure you may get better stats but it's a crapshoot.

I don't want to read about Superman farming for 200 Brainiac robot circuit boards to fashion that armour from...

[lovelikewinter]

Superman is The Justice leagues Tank, you don't send a Tank in without high DR armor, Supes' Armor in Indestructable. That's Legendary Gear. He raided a Bosses Dungeon (Collector's Ship) and Got some Epic Loot. Why would you have him give that up? What you want him to craft his own? Sure you may get better stats but it's a crapshoot.

Is this some WOW thing? Doesn't apply to the comic world, as comics are better than RPGs. LOL

Side track: I had a roommate once who played. He flunked out of school TWICE because of it. Also, our internet was out for a couple of hours one time, and he freaked. Called his friend and they moved his desktop to said friends place so he could continue playing. I didn't see him for two days.

[Superlad93]

I get what you're saying. From an artistic standpoint, your designs should always reflect the important aspects of the character. Even in story, the personality of Superman and what he's all about are in conflict with how his suit is designed. Even the story points or how the costume is shown are inconsistent. Sometimes it's ceremonial armor and sometimes it's just armor. Sometimes it's cloth and sometimes it's metal. Sometimes it has seams and sometimes it doesn't have seams.

Really what it boils down to for me is that it's obvious Jim Lee didn't put much thought into the design or he's really bad at character design. He can draw really dynamic action scenes and his figures look good, just as long as someone else designs them. To me, it looks like Jim just decided everyone was going to wear armor and because it's Superman, the armor is Kryptonian. Then all the other writers and artists had to figure out a story reason for it all.

I keep hearing how the armor reflects his "alien" side. Though really, his alien side isn't all that prominent in his books. Morrison's Superman is very much a man of the people. All of his concerns are centered right here on Earth. He's a journalist because he's passionate about social problems that affect the world he lives in. He protects the average people first and formost. He lives in a poor neighborhood and struggles to make ends meet. He lives with his best friend and hangs out with him all the time. In Superman, he told Hellspont that he sees the world through his earth parents' eyes, because of how he was raised. He quits his job at the Planet because of his journalistic integrity. He still writes about social issues later in his career and passes up promotions at his job to keep writing those human stories. That's not an isolated alien. That's a guy who's very connected and passionate about the world he lives in right now. There is very little "alien outsider" in his books.

So really, the armor explanation still doesn't work. You have more in-story reasons as to why it's not appropriate than why he would wear it. In his early days, he wasn't as invulnerable or strong as his is now. So wearing an indestuctable cape to protect his back or having to suit up to handle a fight with the collector makes sense. When we get to modern day, he's tougher than his suit and it stops making sense. Aside from no one wanting to see a naked Superman in Metropolis when he gets into a fight. Really, this "alien" Superman that everyone keeps talking about is just as human and down to Earth as his previous version. Even his girlfriend is right from the core of Human mythology.

But the books do play up his alien side just in a human way. We get more and more knowledge of his kryptonian parents than we do his earth ones nearly every issue of a book. The devil imp is mad at Superman AND his birth father Jor-el for doing the impossible and harming him, the whole 0 was about his parents, he didn't hesitate at all to "kill" Clark one afternoon, he then started living in space, and the arc in the books right now is about nothing but krypton.

Also the fact that we have focused on more his birth parents for where he gets more than a few of his character traits. When's the last time in the books you've really heard anything important about Mr and Mrs Kent? It's been all birth parents most of the time. Even Helspont commented on Jor-el.


But one thing you seem to be forgetting is that in the new 52 his birth parents are far more "human" than they've ever been. Lara is now a strong willed formidable woman with a quick temper and truble making attitude. Jor-el is Mr never say did "there's always a way" (a phrase that Superman now uses). Superman takes after both of them than what we've seen of the Kent's. It could also be argued that one of the main reasons he became a reporter was because of his scientific nature to observe and study.

He gets his strong willed battle ready hot tempered attitude from his mother and his never say die "there's always a way" mind set from his father. His earth parents just gave him an outlet to use all of this. Mainly Mr. Kent and his ideas on fair play and fighting for the little guy.

But everything else including his great mind come from his alien side. So yes his alien side is being shown quite a bit.....it's just more "human" and relatable now.

[manduck37]

But the books do play up his alien side just in a human way. We get more and more knowledge of his kryptonian parents than we do his earth ones nearly every issue of a book. The devil imp is mad at Superman AND his birth father Jor-el for doing the impossible and harming him, the whole 0 was about his parents, he didn't hesitate at all to "kill" Clark one afternoon, he then started living in space, and the arc in the books right now is about nothing but krypton.

Also the fact that we have focused on more his birth parents for where he gets more than a few of his character traits. When's the last time in the books you've really heard anything important about Mr and Mrs Kent? It's been all birth parents most of the time. Even Helspont commented on Jor-el.


But one thing you seem to be forgetting is that in the new 52 his birth parents are far more "human" than they've ever been. Lara is now a strong willed formidable woman with a quick temper and truble making attitude. Jor-el is Mr never say did "there's always a way" (a phrase that Superman now uses). Superman takes after both of them than what we've seen of the Kent's. It could also be argued that one of the main reasons he became a reporter was because of his scientific nature to observe and study.

He gets his strong willed battle ready hot tempered attitude from his mother and his never say die "there's always a way" mind set from his father. His earth parents just gave him an outlet to use all of this. Mainly Mr. Kent and his ideas on fair play and fighting for the little guy.

But everything else including his great mind come from his alien side. So yes his alien side is being shown quite a bit.....it's just more "human" and relatable now.

If you take all of the aspects of something that is "alien" and swap them out with aspects that are "human", do you still have an alien? I'm not asking to be argumentative, just asking a bizarre question. I'm actually really enjoying discussing this with you, as I always enjoy seeing your pov in your posts. Clearly we're coming at the same thing from two different sides. I find it interesting that both of us can see the same confident, daring hero we love as the same guy but having gotten there from two different directions.

Yes, the current arc is all about Krypton. Though his upbringing in Smallville and the Kents influence on him is always there. It's more subtle, as you aren't being shown Kansas and The Kents all the time. Though really, what made Clark go to Metropolis to fight crime and corruption? The lessons the Kents taught him. Who taught him to respect life and do what's right? The Kents. And so on. Sure, he has personality traits from his parents and his powers come from his genetics. His heroics still seem to come from the Kents though. With Superman it doesn't seem to be nature vs nurture, it seems to be nature and nurture. Kind of interesting really. The Kents have made many huge appearances in the comics as of yet, but Superman mentions them all the time. As seen in my previous comment about how Superman sees the world through the Kents eyes, his own words.

Clark wasn't so quick to cast off his identity in Action. He was still developing his powers and couldn't save lives in any other way than he did. So when faced with the decision of saving a life or protecting his identity, he did the right thing and saved lives. Though when he saw how people really cared about him and how much he meant to people as Clark (even to Batman), he was willing to use an Imp's wish to get it all back. Loosing his identity as Clark didn't make him realize that being human or being Clark was unimportant. It was just the opposite. When he had to live in a new identity as a firefighter, he came to realize just how important being Clark is. Not only to his friends and family, but to himself.

I would think that if Clark became a reporter just to observe and study humans, he wouldn't care about social issues or social justice. So far, we've seen Clarks journalism used pretty much exclusively to foster social change. He really wants to help people and can change the system from within by exposing it's flaws and getting people to act. That's what Clark has been all about since Action 1. If he were going to just study and observe, he's be doing all kinds of stories and not getting involved in any of them. To approach a culture from a scientific standpoint, like with anthropology or sociology, you must always observe and record, but never interfere. Clark has done nothing but interfere. So much so that his landlord notices that someone always seems to beat the tar out of him for his stories. That's not really scientific observation, that's social action. You don't take action for something unless you really care about it. Clark has always been passionate about his journalism. He gets fired up and demands to expose the truth. That's why he loves Lois' writing. She's fearless in pursuing the truth. If he were just approaching journalism as a scientific observation, he wouldn't quit his job over his principles or get directly involved with his stories. He'd play along, have no opinions, and just record what he sees.

I do really like that Jor-el and Lara are being treated as actual characters now. In Superman's long history, they never really seemed to talk about his birth parents beyond the last days of Krypton or putting Kal into a ship. I hope we see more of them. To pose another question, if you make Jor-el and Lara more human and relatable, aren't you making Superman more human too?

[the Sun God]

Jor-el and the guards who attacked him and his wife in issue 0 wear basically the same type of armor. Also several people in issue 3 with Gen Ha's art wear something similar as well.

1) all are armor plated

2) have a crest on the chest

3) and all have capes.

quite a few people have this look--not completely the same--but very similar.

But again just like us on earth krptonian's have different ways of dressing depending of possibly rank and where they live. If you look at issue 3 of Action comics you can see at least two girls walking around with swords--maybe showing their rank.

I was referring mainly to the first year of the new 52 and the concepts initially presented, certainly Lobdell and Rocafort are trying to make it all works better now... and Jor-El is a special case, 'cause he was drawn on Morrison istructuion to resemble the Lee's Superman (see Action #2 appendix), but take for example Kara and her friend from Supergirl #15, their clothes have little to do with the suit Kara will wear later. With the exception of her cape (worn also by Alura), her suit comes out of nowhere (Maybe the problem is in the tradition of depicting superhero costumes like swimwears).

But I don't know if you know that last part about Lee for a fact.

I'm not 100% sure but... Lee has designed the Superman and Batman costumes with similar seams and boots, almost everyone in the justice League have collars, beyond that, Lee was limited to redesign the costumes, it wasn't his task to give a origin to the costumes. The armored look is his idea. Superman suit seems to come from the Justice League not from Krypton.

Also in issue seven of Action comics Grant call it "indestructible armor" not "dress" or anything like that.

And in issue eight call it "formal wear". The "dress" part was referring to All-Star Superman. From Morrison himself:

"Showing Krypton and Kryptonians was also important as a way of stressing why Superman wears that costume and why it makes absolute sense that he looks the way he does. I don’t see the red and blue suit as a flag or as rewoven baby blankets. There’s no need for Superman to dress the way he does but it made sense to think of his outfit as his ‘national costume‘.

The way I see it, the standard superhero outfit, the familiar Superman suit with the pants on the outside, is what everyone wore on Krypton, give or take a few fashion accessories like hoods and headbands, chest crests and variant colors."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/1008...Superman8.html

What I was trying to point out is that this idea was, IMO, poorly developed by the artists, but probably in the near future it will be better managed (already Rocafort, as you point out, is on the right track).

[Superlad93]

If you take all of the aspects of something that is "alien" and swap them out with aspects that are "human", do you still have an alien? I'm not asking to be argumentative, just asking a bizarre question. I'm actually really enjoying discussing this with you, as I always enjoy seeing your pov in your posts. Clearly we're coming at the same thing from two different sides. I find it interesting that both of us can see the same confident, daring hero we love as the same guy but having gotten there from two different directions.

Yes, the current arc is all about Krypton. Though his upbringing in Smallville and the Kents influence on him is always there. It's more subtle, as you aren't being shown Kansas and The Kents all the time. Though really, what made Clark go to Metropolis to fight crime and corruption? The lessons the Kents taught him. Who taught him to respect life and do what's right? The Kents. And so on. Sure, he has personality traits from his parents and his powers come from his genetics. His heroics still seem to come from the Kents though. With Superman it doesn't seem to be nature vs nurture, it seems to be nature and nurture. Kind of interesting really. The Kents have made many huge appearances in the comics as of yet, but Superman mentions them all the time. As seen in my previous comment about how Superman sees the world through the Kents eyes, his own words.

Clark wasn't so quick to cast off his identity in Action. He was still developing his powers and couldn't save lives in any other way than he did. So when faced with the decision of saving a life or protecting his identity, he did the right thing and saved lives. Though when he saw how people really cared about him and how much he meant to people as Clark (even to Batman), he was willing to use an Imp's wish to get it all back. Loosing his identity as Clark didn't make him realize that being human or being Clark was unimportant. It was just the opposite. When he had to live in a new identity as a firefighter, he came to realize just how important being Clark is. Not only to his friends and family, but to himself.

I would think that if Clark became a reporter just to observe and study humans, he wouldn't care about social issues or social justice. So far, we've seen Clarks journalism used pretty much exclusively to foster social change. He really wants to help people and can change the system from within by exposing it's flaws and getting people to act. That's what Clark has been all about since Action 1. If he were going to just study and observe, he's be doing all kinds of stories and not getting involved in any of them. To approach a culture from a scientific standpoint, like with anthropology or sociology, you must always observe and record, but never interfere. Clark has done nothing but interfere. So much so that his landlord notices that someone always seems to beat the tar out of him for his stories. That's not really scientific observation, that's social action. You don't take action for something unless you really care about it. Clark has always been passionate about his journalism. He gets fired up and demands to expose the truth. That's why he loves Lois' writing. She's fearless in pursuing the truth. If he were just approaching journalism as a scientific observation, he wouldn't quit his job over his principles or get directly involved with his stories. He'd play along, have no opinions, and just record what he sees.

I do really like that Jor-el and Lara are being treated as actual characters now. In Superman's long history, they never really seemed to talk about his birth parents beyond the last days of Krypton or putting Kal into a ship. I hope we see more of them. To pose another question, if you make Jor-el and Lara more human and relatable, aren't you making Superman more human too?

Yes I completely agree I really do enjoy talking with you about this. I also very much agree with the 1st half of your post I don't see it as nature vs nurture it's very much nature and nurture that makes up Superman. But you may have missed some of my points or I wasn't clear on them (I was on my iPhone at the time)


I'm not saying that his reporter life was just due to his alien mind or tendencies. I'm saying that it could be argued that that was a part of it. Grant Morrison even says something to this effect in All star Superman #9 where Superman meets his Kryptonian relatives and the mock him for being a "scientist son". At the end of the book Grant flips this and Superman says that it's in his nature to look and observe as a scientist. Grant also says that Superman would have more than likely been a great scientist on krypton if it had not passed.

Now this relates to the new 52 because in JL during the Graves arc the team is distrustful of Superman (Hal in particular). Hal says that Superman hardly talks and he mainly sits in the back floating just watching everyone. Cyborg chimes in and says that it's in his nature as a reporter to do so. I then take this a step further given all that we know about his parents and such and I come up with the idea that reporting is very much suited to him in part because of his scientist nature which comes from krypton. By nature he favors the pen over the sword as he says in Action comics #3 to detective Blake. I don't see his alien half as the soul reason for his interest in reporting but I do think it is at it's core. What the Kents showed him is what gave direction to who he is which is just as important.


If I'm not mistaken the big reason that Superman gave up Clark was because he felt that Clark had over stayed his welcome and was becoming more of a hazard to himself and the people around him. One of the things that Grant said Superman enjoyed most about his life was that nobody could get to him through anyone because didn't really have anyone too close to him. So when he began making friends and his identity was reviled about 3 time (Batman, Mrs. N, and Nimrod) he sees no more point to Clark now that his days as Superman are growing longer (his words not mine...sorta). He then makes Johnny Clark and as Johnny Clark he is nothing but an act; in fact he began only living in the FOS full time. In the end he bring Clark back not just because people miss him but because Clark is a hero in his own right as Batman showed him. He didn't bring Clark back as just a sentimental keepsake and friend to people--he brought him back because he was a hero and Superman is a 24/7 hero in the new 52.

So yeah is ideas on Clark are very much different than what they were and could be see as a bit alien in some aspects.

Also it can't be denied that his krypton world is being played up much more than his human aspects to the point where he has actually called his FOS his home or house several times (Action comics, Supergirl, Superman, and Superboy). The FOS seems to be where he feels the most comfortable and it seems to be the most honest expression of who he is now as a man. The farm for instance only shows who he used to be at one point.


To answer your last question: Do we as humans privatize feeling of love, courage, brilliance, hope, hate, humor, etc? We don't if we are going to except that there are aliens in the DC universe who are much much older than humans then what right do we have to call their behavior "human"? None. The most we can say is that they are relatable to us.

So to answer your question it does not make Superman or his parents "more human" they are still acting Kryptonian it just so happens that humans act in a similar way.

The definition of what an alien should look and act like shouldn't be so narrow. So yes I'll still say that his alien side is much more stated and touched on in the new 52.

[Superlad93]

I was referring mainly to the first year of the new 52 and the concepts initially presented, certainly Lobdell and Rocafort are trying to make it all works better now... and Jor-El is a special case, 'cause he was drawn on Morrison istructuion to resemble the Lee's Superman (see Action #2 appendix), but take for example Kara and her friend from Supergirl #15, their clothes have little to do with the suit Kara will wear later. With the exception of her cape (worn also by Alura), her suit comes out of nowhere (Maybe the problem is in the tradition of depicting superhero costumes like swimwears).



I'm not 100% sure but... Lee has designed the Superman and Batman costumes with similar seams and boots, almost everyone in the justice League have collars, beyond that, Lee was limited to redesign the costumes, it wasn't his task to give a origin to the costumes. The armored look is his idea. Superman suit seems to come from the Justice League not from Krypton.



And in issue eight call it "formal wear". The "dress" part was referring to All-Star Superman. From Morrison himself:



http://www.newsarama.com/comics/1008...Superman8.html

What I was trying to point out is that this idea was, IMO, poorly developed by the artists, but probably in the near future it will be better managed (already Rocafort, as you point out, is on the right track).

I think your splitting hairs a bit with the "Formal wear" and "ceremonial armor" there isn't that much of a difference in the two. Also Supergirl (like Superman) are wearing very different suits from everyone else by design. Supergirl's suit is only given to her after gradation so it's not like a normal everyday suit. Superman's suit was one of the artifacts of note that the Collector picked up so again it's special in some regards even among kryptonians.


The the big fact of the matter is that like human's why should all kryptonians wear the same type of things? Like I said it may have to do with rank, where their from, what family they are from, race, and a whole bunch of other factors that we have as well.

But I guess I could see where you're coming from if you want more uniformity for a whole race of people. I just don't see it that way I guess.

[Lexrules]

I think your splitting hairs a bit with the "Formal wear" and "ceremonial armor" there isn't that much of a difference in the two. Also Supergirl (like Superman) are wearing very different suits from everyone else by design. Supergirl's suit is only given to her after gradation so it's not like a normal everyday suit. Superman's suit was one of the artifacts of note that the Collector picked up so again it's special in some regards even among kryptonians.


The the big fact of the matter is that like human's why should all kryptonians wear the same type of things? Like I said it may have to do with rank, where their from, what family they are from, race, and a whole bunch of other factors that we have as well.

But I guess I could see where you're coming from if you want more uniformity for a whole race of people. I just don't see it that way I guess.

She looks like a hooker in a one piece now. At least the skirt covered her a little although the belly shirt made her look cheap as well. Now it looks like she is looking 100% for a pimp daddy.

[Burning Eyes]

While it's just a matter of time before the detail lines in his new costume fade into obscurity, I don't think the red trunks are coming back.

She looks like a hooker in a one piece now. At least the skirt covered her a little although the belly shirt made her look cheap as well. Now it looks like she is looking 100% for a pimp daddy.

While I wouldn't go that far, her New 52 costume certainly leaves a LOT to be desired.

At the very least it was the subject of a humorous scene in Superman #14 when Lois thought Supergirl was a cosplayer.
Needless to say, Clark was not amused.

[Superlad93]

She looks like a hooker in a one piece now. At least the skirt covered her a little although the belly shirt made her look cheap as well. Now it looks like she is looking 100% for a pimp daddy.

Fantastic.....not relevant to my post in anyway at all....but that's a fine opinion I guess....

[the Sun God]

I think your splitting hairs a bit with the "Formal wear" and "ceremonial armor" there isn't that much of a difference in the two. Also Supergirl (like Superman) are wearing very different suits from everyone else by design. Supergirl's suit is only given to her after gradation so it's not like a normal everyday suit. Superman's suit was one of the artifacts of note that the Collector picked up so again it's special in some regards even among kryptonians.


The the big fact of the matter is that like human's why should all kryptonians wear the same type of things? Like I said it may have to do with rank, where their from, what family they are from, race, and a whole bunch of other factors that we have as well.

But I guess I could see where you're coming from if you want more uniformity for a whole race of people. I just don't see it that way I guess.

I don't want "uniformity". I find the whole thing just a little forced. Explain me, why no one of the Els family on Krypton wears the S symbol? It would be a simple visual reference as had been done in New Krypton saga. I only feel that something is missing: a more coherence with the concept they try to present to us.

[Lexrules]

Fantastic.....not relevant to my post in anyway at all....but that's a fine opinion I guess....

As the late great Gorilla Monsoon would say, I'm a fountain of misinformation.

[Superlad93]

I didn't want "uniformity". I find the whole thing just a little forced. Explain me, why no one of the Els family on Krypton wears the S symbol? It would be a simple visual reference as had been done in New Krypton saga. I only feel that something is missing: a more coherence with the concept they try to present.

Jor-el wears the science conceal ringed planet because he is part of that conceal and Lara wears her crest because that's her family crest before Jor-el. The el symbol seems to be a house symbol and not individuals. It seems that you only wear that symbol during special events (e.i Supergirl's graduation or a the "formal wear" of Superman). Superman and Supergirl seems to have there costumes coming from a very bare bones "special event" type of thing than anything else.

If you remember Superman's suit only gained the "S" because of his DNA. It was unavoidable. Just as Supergirl getting it to signify graduation.


I think not having them all just mindlessly wear the "S" gives them more individuality as people in their own right. You now look past Jor-el of the house of el and now you see just Jor-el.

And again, who on earth do you know wears their "family crest" or a conformed family look everywhere they go. I don't think they have to all look the same just like we don't have to.

[the Sun God]

Jor-el wears the science conceal ringed planet because he is part of that conceal and Lara wears her crest because that's her family crest before Jor-el. The el symbol seems to be a house symbol and not individuals. It seems that you only wear that symbol during special events (e.i Supergirl's graduation or a the "formal wear" of Superman). Superman and Supergirl seems to have there costumes coming from a very bare bones "special event" type of thing than anything else.

If you remember Superman's suit only gained the "S" because of his DNA. It was unavoidable. Just as Supergirl getting it to signify graduation.


I think not having them all just mindlessly wear the "S" gives them more individuality as people in their own right. You now look past Jor-el of the house of el and now you see just Jor-el.

And again, who on earth do you know wears their "family crest" or a conformed family look everywhere they go. I don't think they have to all look the same just like we don't have to.

You do not understand my point. I know that Jor-El is wearing a scientist outfit, only it doesn't show anything that make a connection with the colors and the symbol used by Superman. Too much is left to the readers.
Also Krypton must be represented this way and you can't go wrong: