Winter Soldier #14 *Spoilers*

[jackolover]

Have you read much of Natasha's canon outside the past few years? I don't disagree with you, but Clint isn't just a guy. They weren't together in the film, but they have been very serious in the comics. Clint asked Natasha to marry him, she defected Russia while he was her partner, and that relationship helped give her the strength to do that. The "work wife" term isn't accurate, because Natasha and Clint never had an extended working partnership. But they did have a torrid affair and were an item for many years. It's not like that came out of nowhere all of a sudden when the Avengers film came out, (unlike Bucky's past with Natasha which actually was a retcon.) Bendis has touched on Clint and Natasha's history quite a bit before, having them react like exes when they were on separate teams post Civil War, or when he killed Clint in Disassembled and had Natasha and Steve shown as, you know, the Avengers that matter most to him.

That's, to me, the context you have to read that scene in, not just "Clint is with Jess, Natasha is with Bucky."



Clint and Natasha are exes who still care about each other deeply, that's interesting soap opera stuff, idk why a book that stars them both wouldn't touch on it. They're also two people who make impulsive romantic choices that complicate their own love lives. I don't think that Natasha just goes flitting off with other guys while she is in a committed relationship, but whatever she had with Clint it wasn't, and still isn't just flitting. I don't think they meant to kiss each other, Natasha clearly immediately regretted it. But sometimes you get caught up in a vulnerable moment and things get confused, especially with someone who you were once in love with and still close to. The problem with the scene Bendis wrote was that, while I think that was kind of the dynamic he was shooting for, he didn't convey it very clearly, nor did he contextualize it well in terms of Natasha and Clint. That's been the problem with Bendis and Clint/Jess, too, there's potential for a dynamic there but the way Bendis writes them it seems like they're just making out a lot for no reason.

But I don't really get how one IC mistake totally steps all over the work Brubaker has done? If Brubaker wanted he could easily have Natasha confess to Bucky how she kissed another guy in the heat of the moment but immediately regretted it, because, even if she couldn't say so at the time, it just made her remember how much she'd rather be with him. Or, much more likely, he could just ignore it and we the readers could join him in ignoring it. It's not like the kiss blossomed into a continued flirtation; just the opposite, Natasha broke it off pretty strongly. For all Bendis is concerned that was the end of it. Brubaker was completely free to break them up his own way! Maybe Bendis even asked Brubaker if he could write it, idk, but he definitely had to go through an editor and it's really their job to coordinate this stuff, no??

Black Widow is an actor, a spy, who plays parts, so a guy kissing her is not like a romantic thing with her. She kisses guys as part of her MO. She could even kiss Clint passionately, and it still wouldn't mean anything, because that's what she does. That's how I took Clint kissing Natashsa. "Yeah, kiss me all you want. I'm a level 9 SHIELD commander, and the Black Widow. What do you mean by this"? Clint and Natasha could have sex, and it wouldn't matter to either of those two, because of what they are. Clints been dead like twice already and Natasha whores herself as part of her job. If Bucky felt betrayed, he would have felt that well before now. It's like being jealous of the school slut. You know what she is. Does Bucky suddenly overlook all of Natashas missions so their love is true love?

[jackolover]

In all honesty, I thought it was you that had informed me. Hahaha.

But, yeah. In AvX #0, they're still operating out of the mansion. By issue #1 they're launching the mission from the tower.

As to the exact placement of #0 and it's relation to #1 in the 'overall timeline', that can be debated I think. The events between Wanda attempting heroism again, Hope and Scott's little spat, and the actual mission to stop the Phoenix are as malable as you need them to be.

Oh yeah. That was me mentioning that Stark Tower was reopened in Assembled #1. But I am wondering how that translates to placing WS between AVX#0 and 1. And I can see a break occurring between WS # 1-6 and WS #7-14, so I can imagine the Leo story happening closer to AVX, mind wiping Natasha just before that starts. But Assembled # 1-8 could have fit in the break in WS? Thor basically returns after Everything burns, (or before Everything Burns however people want to place that), in Avengers AVX#25 flashback, so Assembled comes after that.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Black Widow is an actor, a spy, who plays parts, so a guy kissing her is not like a romantic thing with her. She kisses guys as part of her MO. She could even kiss Clint passionately, and it still wouldn't mean anything, because that's what she does. That's how I took Clint kissing Natashsa. "Yeah, kiss me all you want. I'm a level 9 SHIELD commander, and the Black Widow. What do you mean by this"? Clint and Natasha could have sex, and it wouldn't matter to either of those two, because of what they are. Clints been dead like twice already and Natasha whores herself as part of her job. If Bucky felt betrayed, he would have felt that well before now. It's like being jealous of the school slut. You know what she is. Does Bucky suddenly overlook all of Natashas missions so their love is true love?

What issue did Natasha sleep with someone on mission?

Honestly the only thing I remember is when she was getting some info for Bucky, an old contact tried to get fresh and she was just like "Easy, I'm off the market, but if you want the antidote to the poison you just drank you should tell me what I want to know."

Personally, I think that BW's ability to allure / seduce / set at ease is so high that she wouldn't need to sleep with a mark if she didn't want to.

But overall I'm very dissapointed in seeing one of the most well written relationships in comics come to a close.

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

What issue did Natasha sleep with someone on mission?

She doesn't.

[lilyinblue]

Black Widow is an actor, a spy, who plays parts, so a guy kissing her is not like a romantic thing with her. She kisses guys as part of her MO. She could even kiss Clint passionately, and it still wouldn't mean anything, because that's what she does. That's how I took Clint kissing Natashsa. "Yeah, kiss me all you want. I'm a level 9 SHIELD commander, and the Black Widow. What do you mean by this"? Clint and Natasha could have sex, and it wouldn't matter to either of those two, because of what they are. Clints been dead like twice already and Natasha whores herself as part of her job. If Bucky felt betrayed, he would have felt that well before now. It's like being jealous of the school slut. You know what she is. Does Bucky suddenly overlook all of Natashas missions so their love is true love?

I'd really love to know what issues and/or what storylines left you with that impression. To me, it seems amazingly off-base. This is the story of thing that people often imagine happens in the espionage genre with women, but it's never been portrayed. (And it doesn't even make sense - to have sex with men as a means to getting information would put her in an illogically vulnerable/dangerous position. You'd want to be finished with them BEFORE it ever got to that.)

As to "what they are" - they are human beings with feelings, vulnerabilities and a complex history.

People often forget... comic Clint is not a spy guy. This super-spy Clint is such a recent phenomenon. It's not in his background. He was a carnie, not an operative. Yes, he's been on and off the life/death merry-go-round... but it hasn't turned him into an unfeeling robot. It's done more the opposite... it was a contributing factor to the destruction of his marriage and it left him hurt and anguished... with all kinds of emotions and feelings.

[Hrist]

Black Widow is an actor, a spy, who plays parts, so a guy kissing her is not like a romantic thing with her. She kisses guys as part of her MO. She could even kiss Clint passionately, and it still wouldn't mean anything, because that's what she does. That's how I took Clint kissing Natashsa. "Yeah, kiss me all you want. I'm a level 9 SHIELD commander, and the Black Widow. What do you mean by this"? Clint and Natasha could have sex, and it wouldn't matter to either of those two, because of what they are. Clints been dead like twice already and Natasha whores herself as part of her job. If Bucky felt betrayed, he would have felt that well before now. It's like being jealous of the school slut. You know what she is. Does Bucky suddenly overlook all of Natashas missions so their love is true love?

Well okay Natasha has kissed people with an agenda other than true love but I think you're pretty off about her character. If she had a specific mission directive where the easiest/most efficient way of accomplishing task X included some flirtation or kissing then yes, she'll try that. But it's hardly her go-to, she's talked about how she hates it many times, and she's never slept with a guy because Nick Fury told her to. She also doesn't like it when random guys come up and try to make out with her. Look how she pushed Leo away, despite being brainwashed into being willing to do all these missions. He entire history is full of guys thinking they can take advantage of her because they see her (wrongly) as the "school slut" and her pushing them away. It literally goes back to like, Conway/Colan and is even, as previously mentioned, seen as recently as this arc of Winter Soldier. You realize her original reason for becoming a spy was to honor her dead husband's memory, right?

I also have no idea how you could say Clint and Natasha could have sex and it wouldn't matter because of who they are. You realize that Natasha tried to sort of flirt Clint into being her 1960s minion, right? But then despite not meaning to and despite her orders from the KGB, she fell head-over-heels for him. This set things in motion that led to her defection to the Avengers. Even after they broke up and had both moved on to other people, Natasha harbored a lot of guilt for how she had failed him. She felt super crummy about initially trying to manipulate him. That's something she's trying to make up for, by being a superhero, and so not something she'd just start up doing again because hey suddenly that has no meaning to her.

I also just don't think Clint is incapable of sleeping with anybody casually. He is instead the sort of guy who rushes into dedicated relationships he can't handle, like marrying a woman after a week of knowing her.

[Prince Of Orphans]

But I don't really get how one IC mistake totally steps all over the work Brubaker has done? If Brubaker wanted he could easily have Natasha confess to Bucky how she kissed another guy in the heat of the moment but immediately regretted it, because, even if she couldn't say so at the time, it just made her remember how much she'd rather be with him. Or, much more likely, he could just ignore it and we the readers could join him in ignoring it. It's not like the kiss blossomed into a continued flirtation; just the opposite, Natasha broke it off pretty strongly. For all Bendis is concerned that was the end of it. Brubaker was completely free to break them up his own way! Maybe Bendis even asked Brubaker if he could write it, idk, but he definitely had to go through an editor and it's really their job to coordinate this stuff, no??

I wouldn't say it was in character at all. Someone as stoic, controlled and loyal as Natasha wouldn't do that in my opinion, even if there were leftover feelings from a relationship long over.

It just seems to me that Bendis stepped on the toes of a dynamic Brubaker worked really hard to develop, for no other reason than to pander to movie fans. Like you said, it never developed into anything, so why did it even happen? Was it that integral to the story? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe it lays seeds for something in the future? A BW/Clint/Bucky triangle maybe? It isn't even the first time he's done something like this. Remember Avengers Prime when Steve kissed some random chick? It's nothing new for the guy, and I don't have the highest regard for his consideration of continuity either.

As for the editors. They screw stuff up all the time. From continuity errors to allowing mischaracterisations. They do their best, but they make mistakes too. And if they're following guidelines given by Marvel Studios (Who apparently give writers guidelines. There's an article about it.) then they know full well what they're doing.

People often forget... comic Clint is not a spy guy. This super-spy Clint is such a recent phenomenon. It's not in his background. He was a carnie, not an operative. Yes, he's been on and off the life/death merry-go-round... but it hasn't turned him into an unfeeling robot. It's done more the opposite... it was a contributing factor to the destruction of his marriage and it left him hurt and anguished... with all kinds of emotions and feelings.

Aww poor Clint. Bleh.

You're asking people to feel sorry for the guy who goes through women like pairs of socks.

[jackolover]

Well okay Natasha has kissed people with an agenda other than true love but I think you're pretty off about her character. If she had a specific mission directive where the easiest/most efficient way of accomplishing task X included some flirtation or kissing then yes, she'll try that. But it's hardly her go-to, she's talked about how she hates it many times, and she's never slept with a guy because Nick Fury told her to. She also doesn't like it when random guys come up and try to make out with her. Look how she pushed Leo away, despite being brainwashed into being willing to do all these missions. He entire history is full of guys thinking they can take advantage of her because they see her (wrongly) as the "school slut" and her pushing them away. It literally goes back to like, Conway/Colan and is even, as previously mentioned, seen as recently as this arc of Winter Soldier. You realize her original reason for becoming a spy was to honor her dead husband's memory, right?

I also have no idea how you could say Clint and Natasha could have sex and it wouldn't matter because of who they are. You realize that Natasha tried to sort of flirt Clint into being her 1960s minion, right? But then despite not meaning to and despite her orders from the KGB, she fell head-over-heels for him. This set things in motion that led to her defection to the Avengers. Even after they broke up and had both moved on to other people, Natasha harbored a lot of guilt for how she had failed him. She felt super crummy about initially trying to manipulate him. That's something she's trying to make up for, by being a superhero, and so not something she'd just start up doing again because hey suddenly that has no meaning to her.

I also just don't think Clint is incapable of sleeping with anybody casually. He is instead the sort of guy who rushes into dedicated relationships he can't handle, like marrying a woman after a week of knowing her.

Well a lot of people here think the red room teaches nothing about seduction and is just al about the fighting skills. It tend to think the opposite. And wasn't Natasha a kid when she met Bucky when both were part of the red room stuff, as I recall in the flashbacks of recent times in books. She was supposed to marry some older guy but wasn't yet when she met Bucky?

And how is Clint sleeping with Janet in AD #503 flashback, not just sleeping around?

[Robodojo]

I also just don't think Clint is incapable of sleeping with anybody casually. He is instead the sort of guy who rushes into dedicated relationships he can't handle, like marrying a woman after a week of knowing her.

Assuming you mean "capable", Clint isn't really the way you describe him anymore. In his own book, he's slept with at least one woman casually while in a Brevoort defined "non-exclusive" relationship with Jessica Drew. He's also had a one-night stand with Scarlet Witch, and Bendis has made allusions to other women as well.

[Hrist]

Well a lot of people here think the red room teaches nothing about seduction and is just al about the fighting skills. It tend to think the opposite. And wasn't Natasha a kid when she met Bucky when both were part of the red room stuff, as I recall in the flashbacks of recent times in books. She was supposed to marry some older guy but wasn't yet when she met Bucky?

And how is Clint sleeping with Janet in AD #503 flashback, not just sleeping around?

Because the Red Room has never been shown to teach seduction and has been over and over shown to teach fighting? Yelena Belova was completely flabbergasted by sexuality in her MAX mini set in a sex club, and she was the Red Room replacement for Natasha. This sort of implies to me that they don't teach sexual predation as a primary protocol.

The man you're referring to that Brubaker references every now and again is Alexi, who Natasha came to love in spite of the KGB's manipulations, which she generally wasn't aware of. The Red Room is only a concept that showed up in the late 90s (whereas Alexi, for example, goes back to to the Silver Age)—*Morgan introduced the idea that Natasha was an orphan raised by the state there from a very young age. However, the Deadly Origin series presented as Natasha's definitive origin in 2009 makes it pretty clear that she was in her twenties when she joined the Red Room/Black Widow program and met Winter Soldier. This is further confirmed by Marjorie Liu's Black Widow run, which features heavy flashbacks to Natasha as a sixteen year old girl during WW2. Brubaker either works from Morgan's canon or has Bucky assume Natasha was raised in the Red Room. (Although, per Deadly Origin, this can't be so, because he was the one who brought her there.)

Jan and Clint had an affair during the Austen run of Avengers under a noted terrible sex-obsessed writer. But even then, it started out with Clint saying how much he loved her / him talking about how he had been in love with her forever but couldn't act on it because Hank Pym Is A Jerk, &c. Jan wanted a fun fling, a friends w/benefits thing, Clint was trying to get all mushy.

Assuming you mean "capable", Clint isn't really the way you describe him anymore. In his own book, he's slept with at least one woman casually while in a Brevoort defined "non-exclusive" relationship with Jessica Drew. He's also had a one-night stand with Scarlet Witch, and Bendis has made allusions to other women as well.

Well yes but all of those things are/will be trainwrecks. It's not that he can't sleep with someone without marrying them or entering into a committed relationship, but that he can't help but get invested. Clint is a guy who fundamentally cares. I don't mean casual in the sense of "no commitment", I mean it more in the sense of "no feelings attatched"— he can have sex without commitment, but not, I think, without feeling. I realize that wasn't clear from my specific examples, but I do think it applies to that (really icky) store night stand with Wanda/A Doombot, too. That whole story is about Clint being a mess of feelings post-resurrection and trying to sort out his complicated attitude toward Wanda.

[Frank Fournier]

What issue did Natasha sleep with someone on mission?

I'd really love to know what issues and/or what storylines left you with that impression. To me, it seems amazingly off-base. This is the story of thing that people often imagine happens in the espionage genre with women, but it's never been portrayed. (And it doesn't even make sense - to have sex with men as a means to getting information would put her in an illogically vulnerable/dangerous position. You'd want to be finished with them BEFORE it ever got to that.)

She did sleep with someone on mission in Marvel Fanfare #11.

"I was taken to a heavy-guarded estate on the outskirts of Moscow, where I was to labor for the next several months as a special assistant on a top-secret Soviet project. S.H.I.E.L.D. had maneuvered brilliantly to insure my placement at this facility, and to prepare a predesignated rendezvous point I could be airlifted from in the event of failure. It was here, they had to believe, Ivan had been taken- -or gone voluntarily- -to become part of the project. I vowed to know for certain before my stay ended."

"Once inside, I was greeted by the man with whom I would soon be working... ...MICHEAL CORCORAN, an American scientist and defector himself, who the Soviets had put in charge of this sprawling complex. We took the measure of each other during that first encounter. I was deeply impressed by his genuine sensitivity."

She was wearing a blonde wig and some glasses.

"My research was confined to a small, though- -I was told- -essential area. I questioned Michael as to the ultimate nature of our labors, but he carefully avoided comment. Chances were taken with no one. At every opportunity, I strained to hear the hushed conversations, hoping to learn something of whereabouts of Ivan."

"I found myself strangely attracted to Michael- -his intensity and concern. We were constant companions in both research and recreation. But I did come to understand what motivated Michael. He spoke eloquently, and often, of the elevation of pure science over nationalism... Nationalism, a concept he despised. And there were many occasions when he spoke not at all...with equal passion."

Both were kissing each other in a swimming poll.

"One evening, I overheard him- -and my heart froze at the mention of Ivan's name. I listened further, and soon had learned all I sought... except the knowledge of whether or not Ivan had come here of his own free will."

"Later that night, I stole quietly from the warmth of my lover's bed. The time for pretense had passed. The BLACK WIDOW would live again. I made my way swiftly toward where I'd learned Ivan was being kept. The open, lighted doorway made me wary- -with good reason. Upon entering, I discovered... ...the gleaming muzzle of a pistol pointed at my head."

The Soviets knew of her subterfuge and duplicity before she had been landed in Moscow. Since then, they have been feeding her false information on this project and Ivan's whereabouts, which she have been dutifully reporting to her S.H.I.E.L.D. superiors. Michael knew about it and he said what he did was done in the name of science only! The Soviets told him she was here to tamper with his research, to destroy his project. As much as he loves her, he couldn't allow that to happen!

I always thought Michael who looked like Terry Long was creepy. Anyway, the Soviets decided his part in this affair was concluded and he became expendable. They killed him in front of her.

"Enraged, I struck viciously at those who had destroyed the one I cared for. Though Michael had betrayed me, I could never have hated him, for he had fallen in love with a lie...one I was as much responsible for creating as the KGB agents who murdered him."

"Natasha speeds recklessly into the cold night, believing that she has at last outdistanced both pursuit and detection... ...unaware that her every move is monitored by the evil architect of all that has occurred to her since she came to Russia weeks ago."

Even if I love the entire storyline, I'm still disturbed by the fact that Natasha was manipulated the whole time by a villain behind the scene. Such an over-the-top plan to kill Nick Fury and frame BW for it later on, though.

[Hrist]

This is petty far out of the topic of the thread‚ but I think Terry Long wannabe falls into the Hawkeye category. She slept with him because she wanted to, she could have gotten information other ways if she didn't. She was, after all, posing as a lab assistant. But the circumstances of the situation meant that even though they felt real things for each other they still had to lie about it. The first words out of Natasha's mouth when he dies are, "I loved him!" and it was pretty clear he felt a lot for her, too.