Young Avengers #1 *Spoilers*

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah that helps.

Hulking sounds interesting, only because I want to see Noh-Varr meet Mar-Vell's son now.

Is that Alan Heinberg stuff worth reading?

[Hostile Kangaroo]

I shouldn't have to. This is a #1.

I don't expect a full-blown song-and-dance introducing each character, but the story should be written in a way that doesn't leave me utterly confused. Avengers Arena did this right. It didn't bother introducing any of the AA/Runaways heroes, but it was plotted in such a way that it didn't have to.

Well I was pretty confused as to the characters I didn't know yet in AA, so I disagree.

[klinton]

Yeah that helps.

Hulking sounds interesting, only because I want to see Noh-Varr meet Mar-Vell's son now.

Is that Alan Heinberg stuff worth reading?

I would say so. If you like these characters, then most certaintly.

The original series will pretty much tell you all you absolutely need to know. It's collected in it's entirety (including the special) in a trade that retails at under 30$ (I just bought one as a Christmas present, natch). The second half of that focuses in Teddy's (Hulkling) origin story.

There's a second series, Presents, that elaborates on everyone's stories a little. While not by Heinberg, it's pretty informative about these characters. It's a series of done-in-one stories about each character. It was collected, but is out of print. It's all over eBay though for reasonable prices. There are only three issues you need concern yourself with (moving forward) though: Hawkeye, Wiccan & Speed, and Hulkling.

Children's Crusade is a story I love personally, as it was Wanda's deus-ex-machina. It explains the resolution of Billy's origin arc, and clears out the underachievers from the team. If you enjoy the first series, pick it up. If not, you can skip it and move forward to the current run.

[vampiric_cannibal]

Yeah that helps.

Hulking sounds interesting, only because I want to see Noh-Varr meet Mar-Vell's son now.

Is that Alan Heinberg stuff worth reading?

If you have it lying around, sure. Not worth terribly much effort getting. Rather close to teen soap opera. Everything is fine and dainty then the melodrama hits.

[Rosebunse]

Well shit. I thought this was going to be a spinoff from JiM. Can't believe I anticipated this book so much now

It is a continuation of Loki's plan to change himself, so there's that. I would say that we need a few issues until we know for sure what's going on with Loki. However, Gillen could just let the JiM and kidLoki fans have an easy time and not bring up just who this Loki is.

[Rasengan2000]

It didn't just happen the other week, but I wouldn't exactly call a couple of months a long time ago.



Again: One translates from one language into another. Since it's English words either way, you didn't do that. Also, one transliterates from one script into another. Since they don't use their runes correctly, you didn't do that either. And finally, one transcribes language into script. Again, not what happened. What you did do, is decode a lazy cipher.

Not trying to put you down or anything, just educating you on what words actually mean.

And on a side note, the particular alphabet they (mis)use -- Elder Futhark (with some Anglo-Saxon additions at the end IIRC) -- wasn't only used by the Norse peoples, so if anything, they'd properly be called (Common) Germanic Runes, but given the lazy cipher "Asgardian Runes" is frankly the only term I can stomach.

There would've been a number of ways to use any of the runic alphabets correctly -- transliterating the modern spellings in Latin letters (very easy*), transcribing them phonetically (preferable**) or any step between those two (may be necessary depending on which script and which language they actually use**) -- if only they had been willing to respect an alphabet they don't use and invest a modicum of effort (i.e. a trip to Wikipedia) instead of treating it as a "neat" joke.

Of course they could've also gone the extra mile of actually translating the words into Old Norse (or similar) to make the use of runes instead of simple italics in speech bubbles make even a little sense to begin with, but as anyone fluent in a tongue of which words and even whole sentences have ever been used in American super-hero comics (German being the most common victim) can attest, that way lies disaster.

*used almost exactly like their stupid cipher, only with the corresponding letters properly aligned
**Used phonetically Elder Futhark still fits Modern German like a glove and with a little bit of thought Anglo-Saxon Futhorc is still an easy fit for Modern English.

OK, OK, I'll go back and change it, and use 'decoded' from now on. Geez. The runes are put there to be decoded for entertainment, if they were an integral part of the plot I'd call them stupid. It's just fun, and, no offence because I can see where you're coming from, it does sound a bit like you're putting me down. I could see how you'd be offended if they didn't use your language properly, but it's a mostly dead language anyway. Sure, it's a bit lazy, but it's made to be an easter egg, not a part of the plot. It sounds like you really are disgusted by the usage of the runes.

And it's a weekend, education-free zone man!

[RickyD410]

Somebody in this thread is about to tell you that the problem is your reading comprehension. It's not.

Despite the "#1" on the cover, this book is not a good entry point for new readers. It's a direct continuation from The Children's Crusade and draws heavily from past YA stories. Gillen assumes that the readers are familiar with these characters and their histories. Bad form.

I agree, and disagree. I LOVE the Young Avengers. I read Children's Crusade. But I was still pretty confused this whole issue. I definitely felt out of the loop. So yes, it was not a very good #1 issue, but I wouldn't say it was a direct continuation of CC and past YA stories. From reading everyone elses posts here, it seems like its more a continuation of Journey into Mystery and Marvel NOW Point One.

[NexusTenebrare]

Billy and Tommy (who you've not met yet) were Wanda and Visions twin sons. They were taken by Mephisto never to be seen again until the first YA series. They grew up in foster homes, ignorant of thier past, until Billy started putting it together. He's been trying to reconnect with Wanda since the end of the first series, and succeeded in Children's Crusade.

Um, they did not grow up in foster homes. Not Billy anyway.
Everything we know about him points to Billy having been born from the Kaplans. It's just that magic somehow implanted Wanda's son into his other mother's womb.

Yeah that helps.

Is that Alan Heinberg stuff worth reading?

Very much so. His Young Avengers are one of Marvel's best books by far. CC was still great, but to me the original series wins out.

If you have it lying around, sure. Not worth terribly much effort getting. Rather close to teen soap opera. Everything is fine and dainty then the melodrama hits.

You're kidding right?
Gillen's first issue was more melodramatic than the entire run of Heinberg's YA put together.
I've watched quite a few soap operas and that Teddy/Billy fight felt like it was lifted right out of one.
Even Billy's parents reaction to Teddy's mother at the end was way over the top (not taking into account the whole mud face thing).

And some people are trying to make it out like people's only problem with this issue was that it left you wanting more.
That really isn't the only problem, thank you.

[linkspirit97]

If this had been the opening scene to a movie, you'd know what's coming.

You'd know that what Loki has planned will be revealed.

You'd know you would find out who MAC is and what she can do.

And you'd know that you'll understand it eventually! Just keep reading!

[Lady_Alternate]

If this had been the opening scene to a movie, you'd know what's coming.

You'd know that what Loki has planned will be revealed.

You'd know you would find out who MAC is and what she can do.

And you'd know that you'll understand it eventually! Just keep reading!

Pretty much this.

Many of the complaints seem to be that you're left asking a lot of questions. What's Loki doing? Who is Miss America Chavez? What's going on in space?

The assumption becomes that because some of us seem to know, then the answer may lay in previous books and series.

But that's not true.

If you've come from JiM, you can make some guesses about Loki. If you've come from Vengeance then you can make some guesses about MAC (fewer, but still some).

But they're just guesses.

If you've come from YA and CC then you have a little firmer information. You know the score between Billy & Teddy. You also know why Patriot isn't involved.

But if you haven't, then Billy & Teddy's relationship is outlined in #1, as is Billy's decision to step away from "heroing". Speed, who will appear in the series is discussed and explained. If you've not come from YA / CC then there isn't even a Patriot question to answer.

Those who read Hawkeye know that Kate is confident, assured, remarkable and adventurous. Those who don't were introduced to her in #1 in a way that highlighted all of those qualities. The same goes for Noh-Varr; his introduction was succinct and encapsulated his character in a nutshell.

Any questions that people have expressed in this thread will be answered in the series.

So, if any of you are confused, I apologise. We, the people who have read a lot may have simply helped to confuse you more and make you feel as if you were missing out on something.

You're not. All the information is here, in the first issue.

If you'd like me to talk through it with you, I'll do my best. I'll also update the FAQ over in the News & Froth thread to reflect the questions that are arising out of here. Kieron has also said that he'll break down and blog about the issue, so there's that too as a reading aide when it comes.

[Post Monster]

I think it's way, way too early to make judgments about Young Avengers, honestly. Yes, it was slightly disappointing, but I think we have to remember that it was a first issue and for me at least I like to wait until the story's got three issues under its belt before deciding it sucks. But maybe I'm more lenient than y'all are.

Yeah, give it 3-4 issues. Most comics take that long to get off the ground.

I haven't been anticipating this one that much, just looking forward to getting a feel for Loki. I think JiM is just a chapter in the much longer story of Loki's being more sane, empathetic, likable, and getting some friends and support.

[klinton]

Um, they did not grow up in foster homes. Not Billy anyway.
Everything we know about him points to Billy having been born from the Kaplans. It's just that magic somehow implanted Wanda's son into his other mother's womb.

Except that's not where the information points at all. In fact, after having found Wanda in Children's Crusade Teddy even calls them foster parents in this issue. That lable is his words, not mine. This is after they've had the chance to her her side of the story.

The information doesn't point to your conclusions. It explicitly says otherwise.

The Kaplans are (were?) lovely, progressive people. This is probably why Wanda chose them. That doesn't change the fact that they are not Billy's parents.

I'm starting to feel a bit like an ass about this at this juncture. But this is (obviously) my personal 'nerdrage' sticking point.:p

[NexusTenebrare]

Except that's not where the information points at all. In fact, after having found Wanda in Children's Crusade Teddy even calls them foster parents in this issue. That lable is his words, not mine. This is after they've had the chance to her her side of the story.

The information doesn't point to your conclusions. It explicitly says otherwise.

The Kaplans are (were?) lovely, progressive people. This is probably why Wanda chose them. That doesn't change the fact that they are not Billy's parents.

I'm starting to feel a bit like an ass about this at this juncture. But this is (obviously) my personal 'nerdrage' sticking point.:p

I think maybe it comes from the interpretation of the term foster parent as well. Even if Billy's is biologically born from the Kaplans, he's still originally Wanda's son. So the Kaplans could be considered foster parents of a kind. Maybe that was what Teddy refered to.
I have seen nothing in this issue that explicitly points to Billy being adopted.
One off hand remark by Teddy doesn't count.

And I really hope Gillen doesn't change it so that Billy is adopted. The whole two sets of parents thing works even better if Billy's 'new' parents are his biological parents. It adds complication (in a good way) and more emotional gravitas to the matter.

[Lady_Alternate]

Remember, we do not know the circumstances of Billy & Tommy's birth.

I doubt it'll ever be made explicit knowledge. So all we do know is that they're Wanda's sons, and that Billy was raised by the Kaplans, and that's enough for every comment made so far (in this issue, CC, and the previous YA series) to make sense.

[klinton]

I don't think the dynamic changes. Remember that magic is involved. I'm sure there was some reality warping involved, and that for the sake of the story they were indeed Billy's parents. Magic. It changes all the rules.

It was, after all, Mephisto that needed to be decieved here. I do think that ascribing motherhood to Mrs. Kaplan is a slap to Wanda though.

Vision & Scarlet Witch vol. 2 (the origin of Billy and Thomas) is among my favorite comics stories. Ever. I was actually gutted when Byrne 'killed' Wanda's sons in West Coast. I think I even cried about it (I was 8, and it as brutally graphic...sue me).

The reason I started following Yoing Avengers was to see them, and follow that storyline. So, you'll have to forgive my enthusiasm at this small (but significant) point. Hahaha. NerdRAAAGE! :p