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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    17 issues X $3 = US$51. I can buy a lot of novels, get a lot more reading time, for that price tag. Comics provide a poor value on the dollar.
    But unlike novels, you get many small pieces of art to look at while you are reading and is spared having to read how the author visualizes locations and items.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    I don't know about other posters, as long as I'm being told an good story and given good art, I continue to buy the comic. Liking the protagonist also helps. I don't fixate on "Does my protagonist appear often enough? How often does my favorite protagonist appear in the story I'm buying? It's only so X many pages as opposed to Y. Oh no!" It's... odd. If the story is good, the story is good, and I read. If the story is bad, I stop reading. In Sandman, Dream might not even appear during an issue, or if he did, it might only be for a panel or two. But the story was riveting, so I didn't care. But, ahem, carry on.
    Wait--didn't anyone tell you? This forum is now a class project for a literary criticism elective at an accounting school.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Honestly, I would say even this page is not great. The Firstborns first word balloon could have been shifted to the second panel by changing the p.o.v, and then everything being shifted along appropriately.
    It could have been, but I think the page has something more like cinematic fluidity and buildup with the Firstborn first showing up with his back to us before the full reveal of his costume. Might even work better if the reveal were pushed to the next page. But that's all hindsight--basically I think this page works as is. Undeniable, it provides a lot of information as well as drama.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-26-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  4. #184
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    I don't know about other posters, as long as I'm being told an good story and given good art, I continue to buy the comic. Liking the protagonist also helps. I don't fixate on "Does my protagonist appear often enough? How often does my favorite protagonist appear in the story I'm buying? It's only so X many pages as opposed to Y. Oh no!" It's... odd. If the story is good, the story is good, and I read. If the story is bad, I stop reading. In Sandman, Dream might not even appear during an issue, or if he did, it might only be for a panel or two. But the story was riveting, so I didn't care. But, ahem, carry on.
    That it's a good story is why I keep buying it.

    That it lacks the title character who is my favorite is the reason I keep speaking up ;)

    Seriously, though, it's like being told you're getting your favorite meal for dinner but instead you get served something else. Yes, you may still like that something else, but I still want my favorite.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabu46 View Post

    However' I definitely think you're wrong as WW has gotten plenty of action scenes in this series,but when it's needed and called to fit the story, not gratuitously just to show the character off...
    That's a good point and something to watch out for in a story arc; I think a good point that she and a lot of posters are making is the story is moving a bit slowly due to large panel space being devoted to characters who are supporting the story as opposed to the subject character. However, fingers crossed, it looks like, from the end of Wonder Woman 16, we're finally going to move somewhere, because it appears Wonder Woman is about to confiscate the baby back from Demeter and Hermes next issue; assuming it's not the baby, which I do, we should hopefully find out who the New God Orion is after in an issue not far away, perhaps in Wonder Woman 17 or 18. Hopefully we can wrap this story arc up with an introduction of Athena and the current whereabouts of Zeus.
    Last edited by dshipp17; 01-26-2013 at 05:25 PM.

  6. #186
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman being featured more definitely would improve the story significantly. It might actually go at a decent pace rather than Azzarello spending so much time introducing us to other Gods.

  7. #187
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It could have been, but I think the page has something more like cinematic fluidity and buildup with the Firstborn first showing up with his back to us before the full reveal of his costume. Might even work better if the reveal were pushed to the next page. But that's all hindsight--basically I think this page works as is. Undeniable, it provides a lot of information as well as drama.
    I would say there is more drama in the discussion of it than there is on the page LOL
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  8. #188

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    Very good issue! I was shocked by the gore in this, but that just made me even more happy. Love the Hera scenes (Always hilarious banter between here and Zola) and First Born scenes (Though the first born reveal that Zeus gave his life to have the first born return was worded weirdly. And also, wouldn't he be a god, since he is Hera and Zeus' son? And why was Hades 3 ice monsters?)

    So happy Strife is back! Book wasn't the same without her.

    Also, is anyone else feeling like they like reading the gods story a bit more than the Wonder Woman story these past 2 issues? Maybe it's just because they haven't truly introduced Orion and they are building up to the saving of the baby. I have a good feeling that this series can continue this whole story for another year or 2 at least without losing my interest. Plus, it will make for an excellent omnibus/full read through in one sitting.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    But unlike novels, you get many small pieces of art to look at while you are reading and is spared having to read how the author visualizes locations and items.
    Spared? Imagination is sadly undervalued.
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  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Spared? Imagination is sadly undervalued.
    I read the Star Wars EU and I can tell you from experience that some of those battles in my mind are some of most visually striking and beautiful things I've ever seen. The imagination allows you to go places you never thought possible.

    In fact, I wonder now how this book would be in actual novel form....

    Maybe one day when it's done and I'm bored I'll write a fan fiction of the story in prose, with all the dialogue etc, for fun.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Wonder
    17 issues X $3 = US$51. I can buy a lot of novels, get a lot more reading time, for that price tag. Comics provide a poor value on the dollar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outside85
    But unlike novels, you get many small pieces of art to look at while you are reading and is spared having to read how the author visualizes locations and items.
    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Spared? Imagination is sadly undervalued.
    I agree with you, Brett, that having to use our imagination to visualize is actually one of the great pleasures of text-only fiction. But Outside is of course right that we're paying for the art as well as the words. If we were paying by the word, 340 pages for $51 dollars would be a bad deal even if the "comic" were solid text (in which case, I suppose it wouldn't actually be a comic). And even a wordy Walt Simonson comic only takes 10 to 15minutes to read at the most, so killing the time it takes to read can't be what makes a comic worth its price. To be worth it, a comic has to be memorable and has to provoke some kind of thinking or feeling that lasts beyond the actual reading of the book. And I don't find that being memorable or thought-provoking or emotional correlates, either positively or negatively, with the time it takes to read.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-27-2013 at 05:01 AM.

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    That is because perhaps I misspoke. They are not "wasted" in the sense that it should not be told. I mean that there is alot of space on each page that is not used properly in situations where it serves no purpose. For example, look at the image below from last issue.
    Another great post, Rob. I agree with those examples, and I'd add the bar scene in this issue - not a great use of page realestate, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Just having fun with the idea of Wonder Woman's Gandalf. I did, I admit, think you were relatively serious about Zeus being in some sense "the main character"; I remember someone else making that claim pretty seriously and often. That's why it's hard to recognize hyperbole around here; whatever you say in jest, someone else will have tried to say seriously. :)
    Well, to clarify, I'm serious when I say that Zeus (Diana's father) has been given lots of prominence in the story in comparison to Hippolyta (Diana's mother). Diana obviously is more concerned about her mom, but the story is more concerned about her father and his prominence. I'm not serious when I say Zeus is the main character, as that is still Diana, the glue holding this Fellowship together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    But unlike novels, you get many small pieces of art to look at while you are reading and is spared having to read how the author visualizes locations and items.
    Good point, Outside. But it really depends on who is doing the writing and who is doing the art, and how well they do their job. Like Brett, SediarSago, Slvn, etc. - I think a writer can paint a very vivid picture with words, that can make reading novels a real treat.

    Now, I don't want to give the impression that I'm hating on comics or something; I LOVE comics, and the art is a big part of that. Whether it's JHWIII on Batwoman or Moore on Strangers in Paradise or Maleev on Daredevil or any number of comics, the art is a HUGE part of the story. Chiang, and the art team, do a wonderful job here and are to be commended. Most of the time. I do think they miss some beats a bit here and there. Like Rob, I didn't really care for seeing Diana jump about and around Poseidon. It was ok, but not great, not particularly memorable. And the last issue, where Diana confronts Orion? Also not the best use of page space (imo), and with page space so limited in comics, each page is a premium.

    I know I'm hard on this comic; it's not only because I care about the character, but because I think the team is doing good work that could be even better with a few tweaks, a little more polish, so to speak. But that's just my opinion that I know isn't shared by all - I respect the fact that others see things differently, and enjoy reading the differing views as it enriches my experience.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 01-26-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Spared? Imagination is sadly undervalued.
    If you must know, I mentioned that because I have tried to write a story where I've noticed later on that describing a location (the Bat-cave and Paradise Island) often takes an entire page. And while I wrote it to give my readers a feel for the place they are in, I can't help but feeling it's jarring to have the story put on pause to explain it all.

  14. #194
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    If you must know, I mentioned that because I have tried to write a story where I've noticed later on that describing a location (the Bat-cave and Paradise Island) often takes an entire page. And while I wrote it to give my readers a feel for the place they are in, I can't help but feeling it's jarring to have the story put on pause to explain it all.
    I completely understand that.

    If I may offer an observation, I have noticed that in this regard sometimes less is more,

    For example, when I was reading Star Wars novels some years ago, I found the writing of the Rogue Squadron series often very dull indeed because they describes in laborious detail every little aspect of the dog fights between star-fighters. Telling the reader something that took a character a split second to do went for whole paragraphs.

    On the other hand, Shadows of the Empire is a marvellous read, in part because when the action kicks off in the final scene there are lightning fast cuts and enough detail for you to know what is going on and no more. I dont need to know what every little switch in a cockpit is doing to appreciate the drama unfolding. When I came to writing a dogfight between Diana and a pair of F-22 raptors I very much had that style in mind.

    Many great authors like Tolkien and Robert E Howard gave their readers enough detail to get the idea, but also let you fill in the blanks themselves. Tolkien does not tell you exactly how long the hall at Meduseld is, nor how high the roof. We know the rough details of Helms Deep and the Hornburg tower but no more. I think these are good decisions because in part reading should be an interactive process between the writers ideas and the readers visual imagination.

    I think you would write the sort of scene you describe very well, just step back from the fine details and use your words to describe the feel of the place.
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    Irene: “Twice.”


  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think you would write the sort of scene you describe very well, just step back from the fine details and use your words to describe the feel of the place.
    Thanks :)

    Come to think of it, like locations, fight scenes also tend to extend themselves in this fashion (at least when I am doing them) if there's a point to doing it.

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