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    I love this series

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Good question.
    It was a rhetorical question :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Presumably, AmericanWonder considers Sauron the main character of Lord of the Rings. And Rob probably considers that the main character is the ring. :)



    To me, Willow, at times, seemed more interesting as well as more powerful than Buffy. But it didn't bother me. It was an ensemble cast. I see Wonder WOman as much more the hero of her book than one member of an ensemble. Look at issues 11-12, for instance. Lennox is useless; Hermes is traitorous; Zola is the rescued, not the rescuer; Wonner Woman is the one hero. Or look at 10. Strife helps Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman doesn't even want the help, and everyone besides Strife is pretty much just in and way. Sure, Heph may have had a plan, he's the elder counselor--Merlin, not Arthur--and he leaves Wonder Woman to figure out what to do and do it. It's her love that prompts Hades to let them go, and her shot that ends the issue on a high note. Or look at 13 and 14. Wonder Woman leaves Lennox at home, fends off soldiers and helps Siracca with her loneliness and bitterness. Compare the end of Buffy's Dark Willow arc, where it's really Xander, not Buffy, who successfully reaches out to their embittered friend and get her to stop feeling so murderous.

    Or look at 0. Does anyone want to tell me that Wonder Woman wasn't the hero of that issue?
    This latest issue is the first one I've read in full, but as far as I can tell from the previews, etc I've seen up to now, I'd agree with all that, with one quibble: I'm not so sure that Hermes has been traitorous. Not having read the earlier issues completely, I could be misreading the scene, but the panel with Hermes, Demeter, and the baby seems to indicate that Hermes brought the infant to Demeter with good intentions. So my guess is that he knew or anticipated something WW and her friends didn't and determined it was in the best interests of the child to bring it under Demeter's care and protection. Just a guess, obviously, based on that one panel, but that's how it looked to me.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    To me, Willow, at times, seemed more interesting as well as more powerful than Buffy. But it didn't bother me. It was an ensemble cast. I see Wonder WOman as much more the hero of her book than one member of an ensemble. Look at issues 11-12, for instance. Lennox is useless; Hermes is traitorous; Zola is the rescued, not the rescuer; Wonner Woman is the one hero. Or look at 10. Strife helps Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman doesn't even want the help, and everyone besides Strife is pretty much just in and way. Sure, Heph may have had a plan, he's the elder counselor--Merlin, not Arthur--and he leaves Wonder Woman to figure out what to do and do it. It's her love that prompts Hades to let them go, and her shot that ends the issue on a high note. Or look at 13 and 14. Wonder Woman leaves Lennox at home, fends off soldiers and helps Siracca with her loneliness and bitterness. Compare the end of Buffy's Dark Willow arc, where it's really Xander, not Buffy, who successfully reaches out to their embittered friend and get her to stop feeling so murderous.

    Or look at 0. Does anyone want to tell me that Wonder Woman wasn't the hero of that issue?
    Shakey logic to compare the current run to Buffy in this way, since the one season where Willow dominates the finale is after 5 seasons of Buffy doing so. Equally, Xander and Willow are well devleloped characters whose like is not to be found in the current run, no matter how many new ones have been brought in.

    I think when even people who are enjoying the run are saying that these two issues have been tediously drawn out, that says something.

    And again, the issue you cite as the best defence of Wonder Woman being the focus of the book is the one completely unlike the rest of the series in both style and pacing.
    Last edited by brettc1; 01-26-2013 at 04:13 AM.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Shakey logic to compare the current run to Buffy in this way, since the one season where Willow dominates the finale is after 5 seasons of Buffy doing so. Equally, Xander and Willow are well devleloped characters whose like is not to be found in the current run, no matter how many new ones have been brought in.
    It's interesting that while you call my logic shaky you shift the whole argument from whether Buffy had an ensemble cast towards when its supporting characters became an ensemble cast, and towards whether the characters in Wonder Woman are well-developed enough to bear the weight of emphasis that Buffy's supporting characters received. It's also interesting that you seem to have taken my "Dark Willow" to mean that unless someone other than Biuffy is the focus of a season's finale, the lead is not shared. I don't think this stress on finales serves your original argument very well, since Wonder woman so dominates the Hades arc finale in 10 and the first year finale in 12. I also suspect that if Wonder Woman followed the example of something like the finale of Buffy season two--in which Willow becomes the vessel of Angel's restoration, just before Buffy kills him--you would complain that a supporting cast member did something effective while the nominal hero haplessly killed someone she loved.

    I think when even people who are enjoying the run are saying that these two issues have been tediously drawn out, that says something.
    Sure, some people are getting impatient. Some people aren't. It's a matter of taste or preference, not right and wrong. Anyway, let's not confuse the issue of whether it's Wonder Woman's book--which it clearly is.

    And again, the issue you cite as the best defence of Wonder Woman being the focus of the book is the one completely unlike the rest of the series in both style and pacing.
    I cited every issue from 10 to 14 as examples. And while 0 is different in style and pace, it's key in defining Wonder Woman as a character and the backstory and direction of the book. That was supposed to be the point of the zero issues.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It's interesting that while you call my logic shaky you shift the whole argument from whether Buffy had an ensemble cast towards when its supporting characters became an ensemble cast, and towards whether the characters in Wonder Woman are well-developed enough to bear the weight of emphasis that Buffy's supporting characters received.
    I'm glad you are taking an interest. Because it is all about how much story you tell. Buffy the Vampire Slayer could operate with so many characters and yet still be about Buffy because Joss Whedon put the effort into developing the story of each and every character. He used his time wisely, and never wasted it.

    It's also interesting that you seem to have taken my "Dark Willow" to mean that unless someone other than Biuffy is the focus of a season's finale, the lead is not shared. I don't think this stress on finales serves your original argument very well, since Wonder woman so dominates the Hades arc finale in 10 and the first year finale in 12. I also suspect that if Wonder Woman followed the example of something like the finale of Buffy season two--in which Willow becomes the vessel of Angel's restoration, just before Buffy kills him--you would complain that a supporting cast member did something effective while the nominal hero haplessly killed someone she loved.
    I should warn you that I have the full dvd set of the series and have watched the episodes multiple times, so you are no likely to catch me off gaurd. Willow, in the scene you described, did no more than restore Angels soul but did NOT save the day, since that fell to [surprise] Buffy Summers, making the hard call to send the restored Angel to hell as the only way to close the gate Angelus had opened. So while Willow is intergral to the plot, she is not the final point on which it turns. It is Buffy's pain that the audience emotes most with at the end of the episode.


    Sure, some people are getting impatient. Some people aren't. It's a matter of taste or preference, not right and wrong. Anyway, let's not confuse the issue of whether it's Wonder Woman's book--which it clearly is.
    It has her name on the cover, sure, but clearly some people are starting to wonder why? Welcome Back Kotter went on after the lead character became no more than an off screen phone in at the start of each episode. Needless to say, it wasnt as good. And Diana has spent the lions share of the last two months off screen.

    I cited every issue from 10 to 14 as examples. And while 0 is different in style and pace, it's key in defining Wonder Woman as a character and the backstory and direction of the book. That was supposed to be the point of the zero issues.
    Assuming that is true, I would say the key in the 0 issue defining Wonder Woman as a character and the backstory and direction of the book is its difference in style and pace.
    Last edited by brettc1; 01-26-2013 at 06:33 AM.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It is Buffy's pain that the audience emotes most with at the end of the episode.
    Oh, no doubt about that--and the same is true at the end of Wonder Woman #4 or #7. But some Wonder Woman fans aren't happy with just emoting with her, and I suspect that they (well, you) wouldn't be happy with her having to slay her beloved; you want her to be able to save the day in a clean, happy way every time. And I suspect that you would be particularly unhappy if Wonder Oman had had to sacrifice Zola, for instance, just after Hermes or someone had restored her stolen soul. (I didn't say that Willow saved the day, by the way. I said she did something effective. Which she did. If a little late. :) )

    It has her name on the cover, sure, but clearly some people are starting to wonder why?
    Who is starting to wonder this who wasn't wondering about it by issue 5 or 6? I see a few people who were happy starting to wonder why the book isn't faster paced, but I don't see those people wondering who its about. (ETA--OK, looking back through the thread, maybe you meant Dr. Hurt. I don't see a groundswell for this shift in viewpoint, though.) I also see some people--like Nyssane and Alfredislas--saying that the main character is "acting more like Wonder Woman" than earlier in the run. I love it that while you claim that Diana's not the main character because she doesn't appear in the lion's share of the panes in the last two issues, AmericanWonder that that the main character is someone who has never appeared in the run except in a couple of flashbacks. And I don't mean "I love it" sarcastically; diversity of opinion is enjoyable.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-26-2013 at 10:23 AM.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabu46 View Post
    How were those action scenes senseless and a waste of time when it directly involves moving on towards several connected plots?

    The scene served not only to show the the strength of the the first one as a character that will prove to be a threat in some way, but the gods enmity and relationship towards him, since the ice giants were constructs of Hades. And there is no doubt that Diana will be caught in the middle of this, so its building towards that plot.

    I dont necessarily need to see her be the one in a battle every issue to feel the book is still about her and her world...would this be an issue if Cheetah, for instance, was being shown as a future threat in an action sequence breaking out from prison while Diana, unaware, was dealing with another situation peacefully?

    I dont think she has to be in every panel or page of the book for the book to still be about her and her world. Everything shown this issue obviously does, or soon will, involve her. Azzarello's writing this as an long-run epic, not an action filled romp to show how formidable Diana is every issue.

    I say this to say I kinda dont get the complaints that this doesnt feel like her book, but everyone has their POV.
    I don't think the scene is unnecessary - I think the amount of time spent on a fight scene between two supporting characters was unnecessary. 7 pages of fight scenes in two issues is too much and could have been condensed down to give us more pages of the title character.

    I think we have gotten more pages of this fight scene in these two issues than we may have gotten of Wonder Woman in the whole series (yes, that's hyperbole, but it sure feels like it to me)

    I like an intelligent, wise character, but as has been pointed out, she's a superhero. Moreso, she's supposedly one of the top superheroes in the DCU. Both Batman and Superman are ridiculously smart, yet both of them can figure things out *and* get some action in there as well. It's sort of what the genre is all about, imo ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I don't think the scene is unnecessary - I think the amount of time spent on a fight scene between two supporting characters was unnecessary. 7 pages of fight scenes in two issues is too much and could have been condensed down to give us more pages of the title character.
    I think it serves as a nice contrast to Wonder Woman. She gets a lot done by putting her swords away and being understanding and compassionate instead of fighting, while Hades and the Firstborn get nothing done by fighting. But while they're getting nothing done, we're learning stuff about the Firstborn and Cassandra, so that, other than as a contrast with Wonder Woman's peacefulness, the actual fight is the least important thing about this so-called "fight scene."

    I like an intelligent, wise character, but as has been pointed out, she's a superhero. Moreso, she's supposedly one of the top superheroes in the DCU. Both Batman and Superman are ridiculously smart, yet both of them can figure things out *and* get some action in there as well.
    So can Wonder Woman, as we saw, for example, in 12, or when she fends off the soldiers and Siracca (before touching Siracca's heart) in 13 and 14. But not always having to get in some "action" (read, beating people up) was part of the original concept of Wonder Woman. As the NY Times has put it, Marston initially hoped Wonder Woman "would promote a global psychic revolution by forsaking Biff! Bam! and Ka-Runch! for The Power of Love." ( http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/18/ny...-of-steel.html )

    It's sort of what the genre is all about, imo ;)
    What genre? Azz told us before the beginning that this wasn't going to be a superhero book. And Marston reportedly set out to change the genre by making it less about "the biff! bam!" (though there turned out to be more of that in his issues than he perhaps originally intended).

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Presumably, AmericanWonder considers Sauron the main character of Lord of the Rings. And Rob probably considers that the main character is the ring. :)
    Mommy Mommy!! SLVN is being mean to us! LOL. Hey he started it! Heheheh.

    Actually I don't know if anyone has been paying attention to my M.O. but I typically don't get into these types of discussions. Actually, I don't even b*tch about it because the REAL problem is not that Diana doesn't appear much in the story. The problem is the decompression which is common not only in WW, but in ALL new 52. I bought the hard covers out so far and it reads better that way. But then, that's hardly a secret is it?


    To me, Willow, at times, seemed more interesting as well as more powerful than Buffy. But it didn't bother me. It was an ensemble cast. I see Wonder WOman as much more the hero of her book than one member of an ensemble. Look at issues 11-12, for instance. Lennox is useless; Hermes is traitorous; Zola is the rescued, not the rescuer; Wonner Woman is the one hero. Or look at 10. Strife helps Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman doesn't even want the help, and everyone besides Strife is pretty much just in and way. Sure, Heph may have had a plan, he's the elder counselor--Merlin, not Arthur--and he leaves Wonder Woman to figure out what to do and do it. It's her love that prompts Hades to let them go, and her shot that ends the issue on a high note. Or look at 13 and 14. Wonder Woman leaves Lennox at home, fends off soldiers and helps Siracca with her loneliness and bitterness. Compare the end of Buffy's Dark Willow arc, where it's really Xander, not Buffy, who successfully reaches out to their embittered friend and get her to stop feeling so murderous.

    Or look at 0. Does anyone want to tell me that Wonder Woman wasn't the hero of that issue?
    #0 was a 1-shot, therefore decompression is not an obstacle. My main problem is not that I don't get enough of Wonder Woman in the book. My main complaint is we don't get enough BOOK in the book. I can hold a sneeze from page 1 to page 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Mommy Mommy!! SLVN is being mean to us! LOL. Hey he started it! Heheheh.
    Was that mean? I didn't mean to be mean. A little tongue in cheek, maybe. ;)

    Actually I don't know if anyone has been paying attention to my M.O. but I typically don't get into these types of discussions.
    Oh, I know--I was just referring to your comment about Zola being the main character. Seems to be that the rescuer, not the rescued, is more often considered to be the hero.

    I bought the hard covers out so far and it reads better that way. But then, that's hardly a secret is it?
    I can see how that would be, but I actually enjoy the suspense between issues, even if it can be a little agonizing. Maybe I'm weird that way. So I like reading it monthly rather than just waiting between the trades.

    The "quick read" issue doesn't mean much to me, personally. A 22- or 20-page comic is going to be a quick read--yes, even if it's by Walt Simonson. In the long run, what does it matter if it takes 5 minutes to read or 20? Even 20 minutes is not a big chunk of time (and I don't really think a twenty-two page comic is likely to be a twenty-minute read). What matters to me is whether it's memorable, worth rereading and worth discussing.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-26-2013 at 08:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    This latest issue is the first one I've read in full, but as far as I can tell from the previews, etc I've seen up to now, I'd agree with all that, with one quibble: I'm not so sure that Hermes has been traitorous. Not having read the earlier issues completely, I could be misreading the scene, but the panel with Hermes, Demeter, and the baby seems to indicate that Hermes brought the infant to Demeter with good intentions. So my guess is that he knew or anticipated something WW and her friends didn't and determined it was in the best interests of the child to bring it under Demeter's care and protection. Just a guess, obviously, based on that one panel, but that's how it looked to me.
    Yeah, that's a fair quibble--I was being a little glib. :) I would guess, though, that Hermes and Wonder Woman will still disagree when all is known; I have a feeling Hermes may be looking at the best interests of the world rather than the best interests of the child.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-26-2013 at 08:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Was that mean? I didn't mean to be mean. A little tongue in cheek, maybe. ;)



    Oh, I know--I was just referring to your comment about Zola being the main character. Seems to be that the rescuer, not the rescued, is more often considered to be the hero.



    I can see how that would be, but I actually enjoy the suspense between issues, even if it can be a little agonizing. Maybe I'm weird that way. So I like reading it monthly rather than just waiting between the trades.

    The "quick read" issue doesn't mean much to me, personally. A 22- or 20-page comic is going to be a quick read--yes, even if it's by Walt Simonson. In the long run, what does it matter if it takes 5 minutes to read or 20? Even 20 minutes is not a big chunk of time (and I don't really think a twenty-two page comic is likely to be a twenty-minute read). What matters to me is whether it's memorable, worth rereading and worth discussing.


    Ok. Well, let me highlight something that I consider to be negative by using a positive example. I'm sure you recoognize the scene below. It's from an issue that we thought was, if not predictable, controversial. This page is an example of good utilization of a page. We get some good dialogue from first to last panel without cluttering and without cramming. But in my opinion, this is not by far a typical page of the Wonder Woman comic. Often, we'll get a sentence out of a character on an entire comic book page. I wish we'd get some more layouts like this in this (and other) comic nowadays anymore.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Ok. Well, let me highlight something that I consider to be negative by using a positive example.
    Cool.

    I'm sure you recoognize the scene below. It's from an issue that we thought was, if not predictable, controversial.
    One of my favorite pages, from one of my favorite issues. (By the way, I'm slightly surprised that you call issue 4 controversial. I remember that even some posters who were critical of a lot of the changes in this run--the much-missed four-point-oh, for instance--thought there was some undeniably soon-to-be-classic material in that issue.)

    Here's a very different page that's not as much of a high point as that one, but still makes pretty good use of its space:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There's not a tremendous amount of dialogue on that page, but we see what Cassandra really looks like, learn that she has apparently cheated death, see First Born armored up, see him act protective of Cassandra, and learn that Zeus made what Hades considered a fool's bargain involving the Firstborn. This is a page that does it's job. Much as a love the page you posted or even Diana's words to Milan in this issue, every page can't be a heart-to-heart or emotional climax. And people aren't voluble constantly; it makes sense to me that there are lots of fairly quiet pages and some with more dialogue. To me, that's good, rhythmical, non-monotonous pacing.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-26-2013 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Cool.



    One of my favorite pages, from one of my favorite issues. (By the way, I'm slightly surprised that you call issue 4 controversial. I remember that even some posters who were critical of a lot of the changes in this run--the much-missed four-point-oh, for instance--thought there was some undeniably soon-to-be-classic material in that issue.)

    Here's a very different page that's not as much of a high point as that one, but still makes pretty good use of its space:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ww16.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	87.3 KB 
ID:	107757
    I kind of knew that about you, in relation to issue #4 being your favorite which is precisely why I went there to find the example. What I lack as a wordsmith, I gain in observance my friend! In truth, I consider #3 and #4 to be sort of like a part 1 and part 2 in the midst of a long arc. It's own entity. Issue 3 = Revelation. Issue 4 = Aftermath. When considered as such, I'd say it's indeed controversial, at least amongst the Clay Vs. Zeus fans anyway. I agree that it will soon become classic material as long as Azzarello's predecessor does not erase this continuity, whenever that time comes. I believe issues 3, and 7 will probably become something to look at in the future.

    There's not a tremendous amount of dialogue on that page, but we see what Cassandra really looks like, learn that she has apparently cheated death, see First Born armored up, see him act protective of Cassandra, and learn that Zeus made what Hades considered a fool's bargain involving the Firstborn. This is a page that does it's job. Much as a love the page you posted or even Diana's words to Milan in this issue, every page can't be a heart-to-heart or emotional climax. And people aren't voluble constantly; it makes sense to me that there are lots of fairly quiet pages and some with more dialogue. To me, that's good, rhythmical, non-monotonous pacing.
    The page you illustrate with the ice-giant is another page that I wouldn't necessarily call a wasted effort. However, I sort of feel that the scene might have been perhaps a tad shorter while presenting the same information without losing any quality.

    Now, to contradict myself (with an explanation) let me show you the following scene, ironically enough being the very next page after my prior example. Also from #4.

    Look at this page.. Look at it's beauty. Look at what I call a masterful moment of doing what an artist (writer inclusive) is capable of doing. This is a Wonder Woman moment portrayed masterfully. Controlling a reader's emotion is by far the most difficult task and is an art in itself. There are no words necessary. Here, it is Chiang writing. This is a page that DESERVES to be void of any extra verbiage than what is on it.



    In the heart of keeping my attitude and critique a positive one, I will not post an example of what I consider to be a wasted page. But I can.

    We need more of this.

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