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  1. #76
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Well put. That's basically what I was saying to Brett, who had said she was just standing around.
    She is just standing around until more than halfway through. Yes, she gets around to asking some significant questions, and she gets some answers. But in the context of the issue she is very much a bit player this issue.

    I will concede that what little she is in it, she does act like Wonder Woman. But more effort seems to be given to Orion in terms of the dialogue, who wins the banter contest easily and is also instumental in preventing Milan from killing everyone while Lennox makes speeches and Wonder Woman is a grey shadow in the background. Diana's simple act of kindness is really the only thing she does this issue, and it doesnt happen until page 13 of 20. Even then she is really just prompting someone else into action.

    I agree with Mel Dyer. The progress of the last 2 issues is more glacial than the ice who-ever-the-hell-he-is was buried under. Though I disagree about the price - considering these two issues could have been told in one lot of 20 pages I think it should have been $1.50 on the cover.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    She is just standing around until more than halfway through. Yes, she gets around to asking some significant questions, and she gets some answers. But in the context of the issue she is very much a bit player this issue.

    I will concede that what little she is in it, she does act like Wonder Woman. But more effort seems to be given to Orion in terms of the dialogue, who wins the banter contest easily and is also instumental in preventing Milan from killing everyone while Lennox makes speeches and Wonder Woman is a grey shadow in the background. Diana's simple act of kindness is really the only thing she does this issue, and it doesnt happen until page 13 of 20. Even then she is really just prompting someone else into action.

    I agree with Mel Dyer. The progress of the last 2 issues is more glacial than the ice who-ever-the-hell-he-is was buried under. Though I disagree about the price - considering these two issues could have been told in one lot of 20 pages I think it should have been $1.50 on the cover.
    It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. What I see is that Wonder Woman accomplishing, through kindness and diplomacy, the crucial act--securing Milan's cooperation--that Orion and Lennox failed to accomplish, even though they know him and she's a stranger to him. I'd rather see that than pointless butt-kicking, and I don't think Wonder Woman is engaged in, let alone losing, a banter contest--she's just saying what she feels. What she says to Milan is as well crafted as any dialogue in the issue. And Dionysus suggests that Wonder Woman is the reason that Ares is the the bar (and thus the reason Dio and probably Strife are there), just as she is the one who brought Hera and Zola to New York. So if she's the reason that brings all these gods together, AND she's the one who succeeds at the big task of recruiting Milan--well, you can see her as "a bit player" if you want to, but I see her as quite the opposite.

    As far as pace--I actually like being held in suspense from month to month. It's tantalizing, but that's part of teh fun. If it's not worth the money for you, it's good that you're not actually buying it (assuming you still are not). It's well worth the money to me.

  3. #78
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Good issue. I love all the gods, particularly Orion. Chiang's redesign did wonders for him. I also love the "two and a half women" thing that is going on with Zola, Hera and Strife. And yeah, I do love WW's new magic swords.

    That said... I cant help but agree with everyone that says that this isnt a WW book. I mean Jesus, half the issue was spent on the First Born fighting ice monsters. Such a waste of page time....

    I mean Morrison introduces so many new characters in his stories but he never does this sort of thing. Also he breaks his stories in smaller ones so its easier to tag along and the reader gets some satisfaction at the end of each sub-story. I mean it took bats 4 years to beat Dr Hurt and yet by beating his minions in the sub stories we got some sense of triumph and satisfaction that kept us going.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 01-24-2013 at 02:38 PM.

  4. #79
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. What I see is that Wonder Woman accomplishing, through kindness and diplomacy, the crucial act--securing Milan's cooperation--that Orion and Lennox failed to accomplish, even though they know him and she's a stranger to him. I'd rather see that than pointless butt-kicking, and I don't think Wonder Woman is engaged in, let alone losing, a banter contest--she's just saying what she feels. What she says to Milan is as well crafted as any dialogue in the issue. And Dionysus suggests that Wonder Woman is the reason that Ares is the the bar (and thus the reason Dio and probably Strife are there), just as she is the one who brought Hera and Zola to New York. So if she's the reason that brings all these gods together, AND she's the one who succeeds at the big task of recruiting Milan--well, you can see her as "a bit player" if you want to, but I see her as quite the opposite.

    As far as pace--I actually like being held in suspense from month to month. It's tantalizing, but that's part of teh fun. If it's not worth the money for you, it's good that you're not actually buying it (assuming you still are not). It's well worth the money to me.
    I have thoughts on this. I'm torn between the two viewpoints.

    I can't believe I'm about to use the phrase "World Building" because I H.A.T.E. that term! Ugh! But that's what Azzarello is trying to do in his own way. I understand that sometimes you just can't have the protagonist (in this case, WW) appear on every page. I also agree that while you're trying to accomplish this there can't be a fight in every issue and there can't be mind-blowing action in every issue. Sometimes focus is required elsewhere while you work towards establishing certain goals. Therefore, it doesn't bother me that she just "stood around" most of the issue because I understand that this is a process of what needs to happen to get to where we need to go. In fact, I've read issues (of other titles) where the writer just concentrated on an 'ordinary day' of a supporting character's life where they did nothing but their daily. That was nice, because it's a nice interruption in all the action and mayhem of the typical monthly. A typical "A Day in The Life...." issue. Those can be nice. So I tend to side with SLVN on this aspect.

    On the other side of the fence:

    Today's comics (all inclusive) are EXTREMELY decompressed. Azzarello is writing for the Trade Paperback market here, just as is almost every other writer in nu-52. It's very disconcerting to wait an entire month to read a book where this decompression is going on and have almost no advancement in storyline. It's like readying War and Peace one paragraph at a time every month. I bought the first 2 Trade Paperback installments of Azzarello's run and read it in one sitting. It's a very good story... IN TRADE!

    It really isn't his fault entirely, but it's really a very frustrating thing. Admittedly, $2.99 x Month isn't going to put me under a bridge, but Brett is right. It doesn't feel like we're getting the $3 per installment.

    At least in this issue, we get a feeling that she's getting closer to Hermes and the baby. I can't wait to hear the speech WW is going to lay on Hermes for his betrayal to HER, and the unforgivable taking of Zola's baby.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... Instead, perhaps Cronus replaced Uranus, his father whom he slew, as Heaven, and then was replaced as Heaven by Zeus, who has just been replaced by Apollo...
    I understand the tradition of son replacing father; Cronus replaced Uranus and became king, but what I don't see is any indication that Cronus became Heaven. Similarly, Apollo became King, but is there any indication that Sun became Heaven? I know what was said in #0 and the spoilers, it just feels a little wonky to me. I mean, Apollo wanted to know what Ares would do before Apollo made a strong move for the throne, right? I can see Ares becoming king, had he wanted to, but can War become Heaven? Or are these all just job descriptions anyone can fill? Ares leaves his job as War and takes a new job as Heaven? Moon can become Love, just has to toss Aphrodite out and take her seat?

    This is one reason I feel like Azzarello has done a lackluster job developing the world outside the Greek Gods' house - Zeus, Heaven, goes missing, but the only real "chaos" is the family squabble? There's no real noticable effect in the changing of Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    I see this from my perspective, where I do a fair amount of theatre analysis and drawing upon forms beyond the standard comic book tropes. Nothing wrong with superhero action, but a lot of times it becomes MORE effective when the writer uses it sparingly.
    Theatre? That's an interesting way of looking at it. Azzarello does seem much more fascinated by dialogue than action. I could be more onboard with the notion that having less action "becomes MORE effective when the writer uses it sparingly," IF when we did get action it was really good. But it's not, imo. At best, it's rather generic standard stuff. To me, it seems like Azzarello knows he as to include some, but is in a hurry to get past it. I don't think he, nor the art team, really excel when it comes to action scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    And the more I think about it, is this the original Cassandra? Has she had her throat ripped out so she can't give doomsday prophesies anymore?
    Interesting idea, Seant, nice catch. I'm still guessing Cassandra is their sister, but this is a fun idea to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. What I see is that Wonder Woman accomplishing, through kindness and diplomacy, the crucial act--securing Milan's cooperation--that Orion and Lennox failed to accomplish, even though they know him and she's a stranger to him. I'd rather see that than pointless butt-kicking, and I don't think Wonder Woman is engaged in, let alone losing, a banter contest--she's just saying what she feels. What she says to Milan is as well crafted as any dialogue in the issue...
    I agree with you that Diana does more than just stand around this issue. Her dialogue with Milan was nice. But the reveal was a dud as she only learns what we, the readers, already knew. I can't help but think that perhaps Azzarello should have waited to show Demeter, so that we learn it as she does.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    As far as pace--I actually like being held in suspense from month to month.
    A faster pace, a condensed story with more meat, and suspense are not mutually exclusive. Here, I agree with Brett in that the story is slow in general, and these last two issues in particular could have been condensed into a stronger story (imo). It's watered-down soup. Just because I exercised for an hour doesn't mean I got the most out of that hour - I don't think Azzarello really gets the most out of 20 pages.

    And, while Diana's dialogue with Milan was nice, her dialogue with Orion was junk. "Making it hard for me to not jump at you"? Really? Who says that? It's weak dialogue for the bad set-up and only serves to be a waste of space (something Azzarello does too much of).
    Last edited by americanwonder; 01-24-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I understand the tradition of son replacing father; Cronus replaced Uranus became king, but what I don't see is any indication that Cronus became Heaven.
    In issue 11, Demeter says "the heavens without a ruler can only bring chaos," and Artemis responds "again." So it seems that there was a time when the heavens were without a ruler. This might have been when Crosus had been killed but the succession had not yet been settled. Similarly, while I don't think anyone has called Apollo "Heaven" yet, and Artemis says Athena "won't recognize [Apollo's] ascent to Heaven's throne," the rest of Zeus' Olympian children seem to recognize that ascent by responding to Apollo's summons. And Apollo seems to have gained at least some of the power that comes with being Heaven, like the power to reshape Olympus to suit him.

    You can say that being the ruler of the heavens or ascending to the throne of Heaven isn't the same as actually being Heaven. Perhaps. Maybe Ares' successor wouldn't be "War" but only "the ruler of war" or "the god[dess] of war. What we know is that Ares, in 0, wanted a successor (of some kind) and thought Diana might be the one. Would war without a war god only bring chaos? I don't know. Maybe we'll find out.

    This is one reason I feel like Azzarello has done a lackluster job developing the world outside the Greek Gods' house - Zeus, Heaven, goes missing, but the only real "chaos" is the family squabble? There's no real noticable effect in the changing of Heaven?
    Presumably, it takes some time for the chaos to set in, and the throne of Heaven has already been occupied again. But despite Apollo having taken over, it seems likely that some chaos is impending; according to Highfather and Orion, there's a threat to all time.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-24-2013 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    In issue 11, Demeter says "the heavens without a ruler can only bring chaos," and Artemis responds "again." So it seems that there was a time when the heavens were without a ruler. This might have been when Crosus had been killed but the succession had not yet been settled. Similarly, while I don't think anyone has called Apollo "Heaven" yet, and Artemis says Athena "won't recognize [Apollo's] ascent to Heaven's throne," the rest of Zeus' Olympian children seem to recognize that ascent by responding to Apollo's summons. And Apollo seems to have gained at least some of the power that comes with being Heaven, like the power to reshape Olympus to suit him.

    You can say that being the ruler of the heavens or ascending to the throne of Heaven isn't the same as actually being Heaven. Perhaps. Maybe Ares' successor wouldn't be "War" but only "the ruler of war" or "the god[dess] of war. What we know is that Ares, in 0, wanted a successor (of some kind) and thought Diana might be the one. Would war without a war god only bring chaos? I don't know. Maybe we'll find out.
    I understand all that - and I'm not saying you're wrong on this. Like I said above, it just feels wonky to me.

    Demeter's statement "the heavens without a ruler can only bring chaos," sounds weak to me because Heaven was missing (for how long?) and the only indication of "chaos" to the world is around the gods' own dinner table. Even after the changing of the guard, the only change is a remodel of Olympus. The world outside, the world we know, doesn't skip a beat during any of it. Makes it hard to feel like there's any danger even if First Born* kills Apollo and takes back what he thinks belongs to him.

    And for me, Diana possibly taking over for War just feels like a forced and cliche idea that's been poorly developed so we can waste more time listening to War's drunken banter.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Presumably, it takes some time for the chaos to set in, and the throne of Heaven has already been occupied again. But despite Apollo having taken over, it seems likely that some chaos is impending; according to Highfather and Orion, there's a threat to all time.
    Yeah, yeah - talky talk. Azzarello loves talk. Talk is cheap. I just think he does an underwhelming job of creating the sense of real danger and impact for this reader. Besides, at this pace, the world will die of old age before they get around to doing anything of significance. ;)

    eta - I'm a bit surprised there's no talk regarding the use of the term "New God." Orion is looking for a New God?
    Last edited by americanwonder; 01-24-2013 at 03:29 PM.
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  8. #83
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    I agree that Diana is getting to be more and more Diana-like, but, as others have pointed out, she's again lost in the ensemble cast. If we count the first page (which I don't) she appeared in 7 pages, so out of the last 40 pages, the title character has appeared in 15 of them.

    It's just getting frustrating for me - as much as I love the gods, I'm *more* interested in Wonder Woman. It's why I buy a book with her name on the cover, and though I loved the scene she was in, it's far too little (again) for her own book.

    In two issues, we've essentially seen ice giants versus the First Born and the 'reveal' of Cassandra. We've seen the gods hanging out at a bar. We've seen Diana meet Orion and Milan and convince him to look for the baby.

    That really isn't much, especially considering how many pages were taken up with that fight scene. Honestly, if I were to read the book without knowing the title, it reads more like the First One's book to me with others trying to find him and/or the Last Born. I only know it's Wonder Woman because the name is on the cover.

    I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I just keep hoping each issue I pick up that the focus might start shifting, but I'm giving up hope that that's ever going to happen. Azzarello has his story to tell, which is interesting, but I honestly feel Diana is not the central point of it. To me, it's the story of the Greek gods and their intrigues regarding who is on the throne and who might overthrow them and bring about their end. Again, a cool story, but it just isn't feeling like a Wonder Woman story to me :(

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Makes it hard to feel like there's any danger even if First Born* kills Apollo and takes back what he thinks belongs to him.
    I kind of wonder if Justice is on the side of the Firstborn. She refuses to recognize Apollo's claim on Heaven; maybe she judges that Zeus' throne by right belongs to the Firstborn.

    If Cassandra is the original Cassandra she could be siding with the Firstborn to get revenge on Apollo, who cursed her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside 85
    That would have been pointless, Apollo later cursed her so no one would believe her.
    She could have had her own throat replaced as a way of beating the curse. I don't know how she would have become immortal, though.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I agree that Diana is getting to be more and more Diana-like, but, as others have pointed out, she's again lost in the ensemble cast. If we count the first page (which I don't) she appeared in 7 pages, so out of the last 40 pages, the title character has appeared in 15 of them.
    Not that it really matters, but if we count page one we should also count page 2 (because she's present, albeit still fly-covered and silent, in the fifth panel), so that would make 8 pages.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I understand all that - and I'm not saying you're wrong on this. Like I said above, it just feels wonky to me.

    Demeter's statement "the heavens without a ruler can only bring chaos," sounds weak to me because Heaven was missing (for how long?) and the only indication of "chaos" to the world is around the gods' own dinner table. Even after the changing of the guard, the only change is a remodel of Olympus. The world outside, the world we know, doesn't skip a beat during any of it. Makes it hard to feel like there's any danger even if First Born* kills Apollo and takes back what he thinks belongs to him.

    And for me, Diana possibly taking over for War just feels like a forced and cliche idea that's been poorly developed so we can waste more time listening to War's drunken banter.



    Yeah, yeah - talky talk. Azzarello loves talk. Talk is cheap. I just think he does an underwhelming job of creating the sense of real danger and impact for this reader. Besides, at this pace, the world will die of old age before they get around to doing anything of significance. ;)

    eta - I'm a bit surprised there's no talk regarding the use of the term "New God." Orion is looking for a New God?
    Technically It is a New God. And man you are a Downer, I get a Increasing since of dread as I read as I read and When the Baby opened its eyes and grabbed the Fly because it knew someone was looking at it. The baby was aware of what was going on to the Point where it terrified Milan. The baby is a Threat and so is the First Born and The fact no one but Hades Knows the First Born has returned Means there is a Reckoning coming to Olympus and I see the First Born Killing Apollo and Fighting Wonder Women for the Throne before this story is Over.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    It's just getting frustrating for me - as much as I love the gods, I'm *more* interested in Wonder Woman. It's why I buy a book with her name on the cover, and though I loved the scene she was in, it's far too little (again) for her own book.
    For me, it's one thing to have an issue or two where there's not as much spotlight on the lead character. But it's not just an issue or two - it's the norm during this whole run. Yes, I know there are issues where she does show up more, but they seem like the exception. And to me, it feels like I get almost as much WW in JL as I do in WW.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I kind of wonder if Justice is on the side of the Firstborn. She refuses to recognize Apollo's claim on Heaven; maybe she judges that Zeus' throne by right belongs to the Firstborn.

    If Cassandra is the original Cassandra she could be siding with the Firstborn to get revenge on Apollo, who cursed her.

    She could have had her own throat replaced as a way of beating the curse. I don't know how she would have become immortal, though.
    Do Justice and/or the others even know of the First Born at this stage? Also, why do you say that Zeus' throne belongs "by right" to the First born? It was prophesied he who take over, but just because it's prophesied, doesn't make it right necessarily, does it? I fing it interesting that neither Cronus nor Zeus were first born children.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    If Cassandra is the original Cassandra she could be siding with the Firstborn to get revenge on Apollo, who cursed her.
    Does Cassandra know that Apollo has taken over when she seeks out the First Born?
    Last edited by americanwonder; 01-24-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    Technically It is a New God.
    Yeah, I got that - it's obvious. But with Orion here, there's more than one New God now on Earth, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    And man you are a Downer, I get a Increasing since of dread as I read
    So, help yourself and don't read? Skip me, ignore me, whatever - I don't care if you don't read my posts.
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  14. #89
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    Technically It is a New God. And man you are a Downer, I get a Increasing since of dread as I read as I read and When the Baby opened its eyes and grabbed the Fly because it knew someone was looking at it. The baby was aware of what was going on to the Point where it terrified Milan. The baby is a Threat and so is the First Born and The fact no one but Hades Knows the First Born has returned Means there is a Reckoning coming to Olympus and I see the First Born Killing Apollo and Fighting Wonder Women for the Throne before this story is Over.
    If he attacks her she might fight back to defend herself. But for the throne? It just isn't important. It's Zola that is important.


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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Do Justice and/or the others even know of the First Born at this stage? [ Also, why do you say that Zeus' throne belongs "by right" to the First born? It was prophesied he who take over, but just because it's prophesied, doesn't make it right necessarily, does it? I fing it interesting that neither Cronus nor Zeus were first born children.
    I'm not saying that I think it's his by right--just wondering if Athena judges that it's his by right. It might have something to do with the deal the Firstborn says he had with Zeus--maybe Zeus agreed that when he was gone, his first son could not only return but rule. And no, I don't know that Athena's aware of him--she's got to be up to something or waiting for something behind the scenes, but like I said, I'm just wondering. I think it would be an interesting twist, though, if the Firstborn, rather than being just a dangerous interloper, has Justice on his side, and the real threat is a result of Zeus' plan through Zola's baby.

    Does Cassandra know that Apollo has taken over when she seeks out the First Born?
    It would seem likely that she's been seeking him since before Apollo had taken over. But she could have known that the Firstborn would been trouble for all Zeus' other potential heirs, including Apollo. I just think that if she turns out to be the Cassandra of myth, it wouldn't be surprising to see her torubles with Apollo play into her motivations. I still have a hunch she's more likely the daughter of Zeus whoim Lennox tangled with, though.

    And while I'm speculating (and, I know, when am I not speculating?) I wonder what Cassandra is a doctor of. (Dr. Duerson calls her doctor.) Could she be an archaeologist. It seems to be likely that she would have studied archaeology, if she was trying to track down someone from 7000 years ago. While I agree with SeanT that Azz isn't usually huge on easter eggs (with a few exceptions), I think that it if this new character turns out to be a blond archaeologist daughter of Zeus named Cassandra, she'll have a remarkable amount in common with the Sandsmarks. She's obviously not Wonder Girl, but, like Aleka and Dessa, she may be a new character who notably resembles an old character (or, in this case, maybe a couple of old characters--or more, if she also has something in common with Dr. Cyber or Silver Swan). I'm not prejudging whether such similarities would be good or bad--just wondering.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-24-2013 at 05:13 PM.

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