Digital or Print

[glennsim]

You're partially right. The reason you don't own the comics is not because of the limitations in the Terms of Use. The reason you don't own the comics is because what you buy from Comixology is a license to read the comics; you don't actually buy the comics themselves. The limitations in the Terms of Use are there because you don't own the comics, not the other way round.

It depends on the person. Not owning the comics does affect how one can use them. Owning the comics does provide value. However, it's one of those times when the value doesn't automatically matter to everyone. It might not matter you or me, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to anyone or that it is inherently irrelevant. I guarantee that it does actually matter to some people. Whether or not it matters varies from person to person. You can't say, "It doesn't matter to me, therefore it doesn't matter at all."

No problem. It's always nice to have a discussion that doesn't escalate to personal insults.

I guess what I'm waiting for is for someone to give me a reason why not owning the comic is important that isn't just as much a function of the fact that you're purchasing a DRM-protected product as it is the terms of use.

I could set up a Web site and an app that sold digital files, but you had to have an individual e-mail address and log in to access the files and you would have to use an app to access the files on a tablet/phone. And then I would not have any of that language in my terms of use. I could even put in my Terms of Use "Congratulations - you own this file!". However, because of the way the whole things is set up, you still can't resell the books. Because it's functionally impossible.

On the flip side, Theoretically I could go and get a gmail account and then new ITunes/Comixology/etc. accounts, and the purchase an entire run of a comic series under that account. Then remove or cancel the credit card from the account and sell that complete run (complete with the login and password). Now that's a big huge pain in the ass, but I've managed to sell the digital comics. Even though I didn't own them. Thus ownership and the ability to resell are not related.

So if people don't like DRM-protected stuff, that's fine. If they don't like the fact that it's functionally impossible to resell it, that's fine. But not owning the stuff, in and of itself, is meaningless. And that's not an issue of "why do you want to own it" - it's a matter of "how does owning it provide you with an ability that can't be taken away from you in some other way."

EDIT: Sorry, just thought of a much better way of asking my question: "In what way do those words being in the Terms of Use actually stop you from doing anything? And if they don't, then it must be something other than a lack of ownership that is stopping you."

[dancj]

I could set up a Web site and an app that sold digital files, but you had to have an individual e-mail address and log in to access the files and you would have to use an app to access the files on a tablet/phone. And then I would not have any of that language in my terms of use. I could even put in my Terms of Use "Congratulations - you own this file!". However, because of the way the whole things is set up, you still can't resell the books. Because it's functionally impossible.

Regardless of what you say in the terms, if I'm unable to sell the comics or pass them onto my kids then I wouldn't consider it ownership.

For what it's worth, ownership isn't a complete deal breaker for me, but I would expect the price to be significantly lower (say 50 cents per issue or less) to compensate.

[dancj]

Out of curiosity I looked up the legal definition of Ownership on Google and came up with this:
http://law.yourdictionary.com/ownership

The total body of rights to use and enjoy a property, to pass it on to someone else as an inheritance, or to convey it by sale. Ownership implies the right to possess property, regardless of whether or not the owner personally makes constructive use of it.

[Kurri]

Regardless of what you say in the terms, if I'm unable to sell the comics or pass them onto my kids then I wouldn't consider it ownership.

For what it's worth, ownership isn't a complete deal breaker for me, but I would expect the price to be significantly lower (say 50 cents per issue or less) to compensate.

I agree 100%. I went all digital but then had a change of heart after about 6 months. The price is the exact same if you want new releases. Marvel doesnt give you a discount until 6 months after and DC 1 month after. The prices are just too high for not physically owning something. I think 99 cents should be the price range for digital, but then the publisher really doesnt make any money. Then again, if the sales were to skyrocket due to the low price, they might make more in the end?

[Whizzkid]

I guess what I'm waiting for is for someone to give me a reason why not owning the comic is important that isn't just as much a function of the fact that you're purchasing a DRM-protected product as it is the terms of use.

I could set up a Web site and an app that sold digital files, but you had to have an individual e-mail address and log in to access the files and you would have to use an app to access the files on a tablet/phone. And then I would not have any of that language in my terms of use. I could even put in my Terms of Use "Congratulations - you own this file!". However, because of the way the whole things is set up, you still can't resell the books. Because it's functionally impossible.

On the flip side, Theoretically I could go and get a gmail account and then new ITunes/Comixology/etc. accounts, and the purchase an entire run of a comic series under that account. Then remove or cancel the credit card from the account and sell that complete run (complete with the login and password). Now that's a big huge pain in the ass, but I've managed to sell the digital comics. Even though I didn't own them. Thus ownership and the ability to resell are not related.

So if people don't like DRM-protected stuff, that's fine. If they don't like the fact that it's functionally impossible to resell it, that's fine. But not owning the stuff, in and of itself, is meaningless. And that's not an issue of "why do you want to own it" - it's a matter of "how does owning it provide you with an ability that can't be taken away from you in some other way."

EDIT: Sorry, just thought of a much better way of asking my question: "In what way do those words being in the Terms of Use actually stop you from doing anything? And if they don't, then it must be something other than a lack of ownership that is stopping you."

Ultimately its about access if you have the ability to copy the file onto your PC and then use a 3rd party app to read the file you virtually own the comic and that is the crux and by extension you will then be able to sell (though with there being unlimited supply there is really no point to selling a digital file you'll lose money), bequeath, backup, have access to that comic for as long as its there just like a physical object. At the moment you only have a license that allows you under condition to access that comic and thus no ownership and that license can be revoked at any time by the licensee, so if you put 5000 £/$/Euro's into a service and then suddenly that collection is unavailable to you you are going to be pissed aren't you? so there is value in ownership.

I personally feel that the drm is a short term problem as the digital comic market is tiny but it has potential to be massive and put print into extinction but its early days yet and letting your IP's out into the world without there being a big enough market is too risky for the big players at this time, but when the market is mature and the income is sufficient they will relax the drm just like iTunes has with its music downloads.

[dancj]

I think 99 cents should be the price range for digital, but then the publisher really doesnt make any money.

We covered that earlier in the thread. Publishers make more than three times more money from digital comics than for print comics. This means that they could drop their prices to 99c and make more than they currently would for $3 comics.

I'm sure the extra sales would offset it enough to make it worthwhile for the $4 books too.

[ceroxide]

totally up to you and where you stand but me personally, I buy both print and digital. Marvel tends to be good with this by giving you the digital code with the issue, DC not so much, however because my job makes me travel 85% of the time I went all digital for DC comics, and if I like the story I buy the trades

really digital feels better for me simply because, I could be waiting at the airport for my next flight and buy/read my regular pull list issues, and rather than carrying 20 or so books I hav it all in my ipad/ipod which makes things a whole lot easier :)

[glennsim]

We covered that earlier in the thread. Publishers make more than three times more money from digital comics than for print comics. This means that they could drop their prices to 99c and make more than they currently would for $3 comics.

I'm sure the extra sales would offset it enough to make it worthwhile for the $4 books too.

But they probably currently sell less than 1/3 as many digital as they do print right now. It's not just about making some tiny profit on something - the whole thing has to be profitable, above a certain level, to be worth pursuing.

There have also been situations where smaller publishers dropped their prices on digital, and sales went down. The theory is that if something only costs $.99, it must not be of any value.