Nightwing #16 Preveiw/Discussion

[Godlike13]

For crying out loud the circus crew has only been Jokerized not out and out killed and Joker toxin has an antidote. They'll probably be fine in the end. Geez. Talk about making mountains out of molehills. In any case all this negativity is starting to grate on me so I'm bowing out of the topic now.

Oh, its spiraling. But i think its been pent up, and the dam is coming undone for some of us.

Great thing about Batman and Co. He can be written in tons of different ways. One of those ways is horror (this isn't the first time). I think it's almost funny that people are like "it's super hero comics, it has to be written a certain way". Yeah, no thanks. One of the best things about Batman and Co. is the versatility of the stories his mythos can produce. It's not written "wrong" just because you don't like or agree with it.

Here is the thing though. Nightwing is not Batman, and u especially don't want to write him too much like Batman, because then he's just gonna get brushed off as "Batman-lite". Now that doesn't mean u can't do a Nightwing horror story, but the trick is u got to make sure Nightwing doesn't get lost in the horror and the darkness. Because one of the biggest appeals of Dick is that he isn't a dark character. He's a light character in a dark world. Nightwing just isn't a very Nightwing when he's miserable, quite frankly a miserable Nightwing kind of misses the point.

Again though, i am kind of withholding verdict in till i see the rebound, and where this leads to.

The funny thing though is that it's all such a grand example of missing the point. In nearly every instance they're taking something that's vital to one of them and giving it to the other, who doesn't really benefit all that much from it.

Like Tim fans don't really care about him founding TT because he's better as a solo bat character. The exact opposite seems to be true of Dick, who works better as a DCU character.

Same with Shiva being shoehorned into Dick's origin, which screws with Tim's history quite a bit, but I feel like every Nightwing fan would rather it have been Deathstroke, or even someone like Lady Vic.

Exactly.

Honestly though I didn't mind RHaTO, because that's one instance where the character has benefitted, but Deathstroke is too far.

I think at this point its pretty evident that RHaTO is a remodeled Titans book.

[Conway]

The funny thing though is that it's all such a grand example of missing the point. In nearly every instance they're taking something that's vital to one of them and giving it to the other, who doesn't really benefit all that much from it.

Like Tim fans don't really care about him founding TT because he's better as a solo bat character. The exact opposite seems to be true of Dick, who works better as a DCU character.

Same with Shiva being shoehorned into Dick's origin, which screws with Tim's history quite a bit, but I feel like every Nightwing fan would rather it have been Deathstroke, or even someone like Lady Vic.

Honestly though I didn't mind RHaTO, because that's one instance where the character has benefitted, but Deathstroke is too far.

I guess I wasn't literal enough. I feel like they have only taken from Dick, where as they have given some new things to Tim. Yes they used to be Dick's and this Tim isn't the same character, but he was given the TT origin story, he was given an Olympic background, he was even given back his parents.

The closest Dick's story has gotten to anything new is that the Happy wholesome childhood that was taken from him at the circus, was actually just training to become a zombie owl. Even that kind of feels like they are taking away more than they are giving back.

It's funny how you bring up King. Ya know, the guy who collaborated with Snyder in the first arc of American Vampire, and wrote Skinner Sweet's origin? Plus, King has done tons of "gross out" and "shocking" things in stories like The Shining and Misery. So, I just find that pretty ironic.

I feel like, if you think the most impressive parts of The Shining, or Misery is the "gross out" or the "shock" you missed the point of those movies and I can't help you.

As a story, DotF is bad, even as a horror story it's barely acceptable.

Back on topic, the issue had it's moments. Sweet little Jokerized girls, blowing up Amusement Mile, and mental slips into Dick's mind made it decent. But between this issue and RHatO... as a Boy Wonder fan I was too distracted by the death of Nightwing to care anymore.

[maxpower00044]

I feel like, if you think the most impressive parts of The Shining, or Misery is the "gross out" or the "shock" you missed the point of those movies and I can't help you.

Yeah, that's what I said.....

As a story, DotF is bad, even as a horror story it's barely acceptable.

That's why a majority of people love it, and sing it's praises....it's obvious "a handful of people not liking = it's bad.."

[Whip Whirlwind]

I guess I wasn't literal enough. I feel like they have only taken from Dick, where as they have given some new things to Tim. Yes they used to be Dick's and this Tim isn't the same character, but he was given the TT origin story, he was given an Olympic background, he was even given back his parents.

Tim's backstory with Shiva was taken from him and given to Dick, as was one of the more notable aspects of Tim's origin, which was finding out who batman and nightwing were. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if both of them did it, but Tim's current origin is "kid who was so smart he tried really hard to find out who batman was and to get his attention, but failed so spectacularly his parents almost got murdered and had to go into witness protection"

And the olympic background is another example of them missing the point. It takes away from his everyman aspect, which is one of the reasons the original Dixon series was so successful.

My point is that most Tim fans don't even want the things that are being given to him, just as Dick fans don't want the few Tim things that have been given to Dick.

[hobogunn]

I'm getting sick of horror,slasher,torture.

Me too...I love horror comics, and I'll read and enjoy the Dark line of books for those - but not Nightwing, Batgirl or even the Green Lantern Corps. There just doesn't seem to be any fun, light-hearted books in the Nu52 right now, to balance out all the grim'n'gritty titles.

[Conway]

That just be why a majority of people love it, and sing it's praises....it's obvious "a handful of people not liking = it's bad.."

That's just it, it's more like 50/50. You don't get 60+ pages of people complaining about how let down they feel every month if the majority love it. Most of us can agree that NotO was not anything particularly special, but even it didn't get that kind of negative response.

As for King, I never said he didn't use every horror tool in the book, I just said that even the guy most people consider the Godfather of Horror feels that the "gross out" is gimmicky and should only be used sparingly not over and over again. Every issue has at least two scenes based on those cheap gimmicks. As horror goes, DotF lacks imagination, and as superhero stories goes, it lacks heroes.

[maxpower00044]

Here is the thing though. Nightwing is not Batman, and u especially don't want to write him too much like Batman, because then he's just gonna get brushed off as "Batman-lite". Now that doesn't mean u can't do a Nightwing horror story, but the trick is u got to make sure Nightwing doesn't get lost in the horror and the darkness. Because one of the biggest appeals of Dick is that he isn't a dark character. He's a light character in a dark world. Nightwing just isn't a very Nightwing when he's miserable, quite frankly a miserable Nightwing kind of misses the point.

Again though, i am kind of withholding verdict in till i see the rebound, and where this leads to.

I disagree about Dick getting lost in the darkness. It's pretty common psychology that if something scares you, you act differently. I'd find it less believable if Grayson was grinning, smiling, and making wise cracks as everything he's worked for, and all his friends are being destroyed and Jokerized. He's been pretty optimistic up until this tie-in arc.

[Conway]

Tim's backstory with Shiva was taken from him and given to Dick, as was one of the more notable aspects of Tim's origin, which was finding out who batman and nightwing were. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if both of them did it, but Tim's current origin is "kid who was so smart he tried really hard to find out who batman was and to get his attention, but failed so spectacularly his parents almost got murdered and had to go into witness protection"

And the olympic background is another example of them missing the point. It takes away from his everyman aspect, which is one of the reasons the original Dixon series was so successful.

My point is that most Tim fans don't even want the things that are being given to him, just as Dick fans don't want the few Tim things that have been given to Dick.

You're right, I forgot that Dick figured out who Batman was, that was a cheapening of Tim (and makes me think Dick is going after R'as and going to be called "Detective" by him).

I don't view Shiva as a case of Dick being given something, because it really was a trade for Slade. I don't think it was a trade up but that is opinion.

I wasn't as young when Tim came around so my love isn't as strong, but you're right, and I have been very vocal in defending Tim. They have taken a ton from him as well as giving him the new stuff. The idea that he was never Robin, and took on the villain name of Red Robin is a rip off.

[maxpower00044]

That's just it, it's more like 50/50. You don't get 60+ pages of people complaining about how let down they feel every month if the majority love it.

It does when it's the same handful of posters making those comments over, and over in the 60+ pages. Plus, you do realize comic book fans exist outside of this forum, right?

As for King, I never said he didn't use every horror tool in the book, I just said that even the guy most people consider the Godfather of Horror feels that the "gross out" is gimmicky and should only be used sparingly not over and over again. Every issue has at least two scenes based on those cheap gimmicks. As horror goes, DotF lacks imagination, and as superhero stories goes, it lacks heroes.

And all I said was I found it ironic you'd use King as an example when he collaborated with the guy you were talking down about. And as for your views in DOTF; go look at other outlets and posts from users on other sites. Then, maybe you'll see how in the minority you are.

[Godlike13]

I disagree about Dick getting lost in the darkness. It's pretty common psychology that if something scares you, you act differently. I'd find it less believable if Grayson was grinning, smiling, and making wise cracks as everything he's worked for, and all his friends are being destroyed and Jokerized. He's been pretty optimistic up until this tie-in arc.

Im not saying he has to be grinning, smiling, and making wise cracks as everything he's worked for, and all his friends are being destroyed and Jokerized, but there is a fine line. He shouldn't lose his swagger, even when the shit hits the fan and things get bleak. Thats just not his style. And let get real here, we don't read comics to see character's act common. Being miserable is just not a good look for Dick. Just like Bruce singing Kumbaya and giving out free hugs wouldn't really be a good look for him.

[Conway]

It does when it's the same handful of posters making those comments over, and over in the 60+ pages. Plus, you do realize comic book fans exist outside of this forum, right?



And all I said was I found it ironic you'd use King as an example when he collaborated with the guy you were talking down about. And as for your views in DOTF; go look at other outlets and posts from users on other sites. Then, maybe you'll see how in the minority you are.

See that is the thing. I see far more variety in the number of people not impressed by DotF than those that love it. Any criticism is just some minority hating for no reason, when scores of people consistently cite the problems they are having with it. The big board and forums all post gushing interviews and reviews, but the collectors and the readers are far more critical on their private blogs. We all surround ourselves with people that share our views, but I have an easier time finding someone that is bored with DotF than someone that loves it. There is also a possibility that you might be the one misleading yourself on how popular it is.

I cited King, a writer who's work I feel is juvenile, because his words hold weight with horror fans. If I use his rules for assessing the quality of this work then my judgement is that it is weak even by horror standards.

King has always been honest about his work, and often feels it is elevated to a status it doesn't deserve simply because it has his name on it. I would like to believe that he would feel the same way about this even if Snyder was his best friend ever.

[Whip Whirlwind]

You're right, I forgot that Dick figured out who Batman was, that was a cheapening of Tim (and makes me think Dick is going after R'as and going to be called "Detective" by him).

Lol and Tim is going to become a suave ladies man (as opposed previously, when he was a supremely awkward ladies man)

I don't view Shiva as a case of Dick being given something, because it really was a trade for Slade. I don't think it was a trade up but that is opinion.

I see what you're saying, but Jason got Slade, not Tim. And I agree that in all cases it was not a trade up.

I say this a lot, but they really should have looked to Young Justice for Jason. Their revamp of Sportsmaster was great, and by making him cheshire's father (as he is in YJ) that would work as a villain for both Jason and Roy.

I wasn't as young when Tim came around so my love isn't as strong, but you're right, and I have been very vocal in defending Tim. They have taken a ton from him as well as giving him the new stuff. The idea that he was never Robin, and took on the villain name of Red Robin is a rip off.

Yeah it sucks, but Tim's been getting wrecked for about a decade now, so I'm kind of used to it by now.

Im not saying he has to be grinning, smiling, and making wise cracks as everything he's worked for, and all his friends are being destroyed and Jokerized, but there is a fine line. He shouldn't lose his swagger, even when the shit hits the fan and things get bleak. Thats just not his style. And let get real here, we don't read comics to see character's act common. Being miserable is just not a good look for Dick. Just like Bruce singing Kumbaya and giving out free hugs wouldn't really be a good look for him.

Yeah, the easiest way to put it IMO is that Dick's last thought before facing Joker should be less "Whatever happens is on me" , more "I won't let anything else happen"

[adkal]

You're right, I forgot that Dick figured out who Batman was, that was a cheapening of Tim (and makes me think Dick is going after R'as and going to be called "Detective" by him).

Dick already was - when Bruce disappeared and before Dick took on the mantle, he and Ra's had a showdown and Ra's called him 'Detective'.

[maxpower00044]

See that is the thing. I see far more variety in the number of people not impressed by DotF than those that love it.

Do ya? Please point me in the direction of this fantasy land. :)

Any criticism is just some minority hating for no reason, when scores of people consistently cite the problems they are having with it.

I don't remember implying this. Saying you're in the minority isn't the same thing as saying your opinion is invalid.

There is also a possibility that you mig
ht be the one misleading yourself on how popular it is.

Yeah, I'm the one buying all the copies, and writing all the 5/5 and 9.5/10 reviews for the "big boards".


So, do you guys thing this result of DOTF is going to lead to Dick going to another city? Do you guys think it could possibly be a retcon of Bludhaven?

[Conway]

So, do you guys thing this result of DOTF is going to lead to Dick going to another city? Do you guys think it could possibly be a retcon of Bludhaven?

Wow, totally right. I'm waaaay off topic. Whether the critics were bought and paid for has nothing to do with NW.

I've heard that the official stance is Bludhaven doesn't exist in the DCnU, but I can't remember which interview. I don't think there is any chance Dick is sticking around Gotham now that Amusement Mile and the Bat-Fam are both ashes.