Nightwing #16 Preveiw/Discussion

[OberonOsiris]

I can't agree enough with this. The horror is getting really old.

I can't wait until Tim goes dark, has a ton of girlfriends, sets up a global network of reluctant anti-heroes, goes toe to toe with Shiva, takes out R'as and the League of Assassins, and puts his best friend in the hospital because the kid went all villain... Er... wait... It was Tim last time, I meant Dick.

<<< Oberon's Snippage >>>
no longer have any reason to read about a character that has been a part of DCU longer than most of the DCnU's Original Justice League.

So this! The time of the Silver Age, was about 30 years and most of the characters and concepts are in existence, even "beating out" the Golden Age to some degree. There have been, what, 2 or 3 reboots since Crisis/Infinite?
for me, it is easier to care or be more interested in the characters THAT HAVE THE MOST HISTORY. Nightwing should be on the League. Jason should be the loner.

[maxpower00044]

I think if you're not keen on horror, you should probably not be reading stories with horror elements (instead of getting mad when the story is not tailored to your specific tastes). For someone who loves horror and gore (like me), I don't think it's getting "boring" or "old", at all. I enjoyed this issue a lot, and I think everything failing on Nightwing in Gotham, is setting up for him to move to a new locale (Maybe Bludhaven will be retconned back). And, I don't know how anyone can argue that Nightwing being out of Gotham is a bad thing. And for God's sake, get this dude an arch nemisis already. I always thought Gordon Jr. could and would be Dick's new arch enemy, but alas he's probably going to get killed off inthe next Batgirl arc (Basing this off of that one cover. Don't shoot me).

[Claude]

So the ENTIRE circus staff are now dead? Gawd, that's way worse than just the roller rink of dead victims over in Batgirl's title. And FYI to DC, I'm freakin' SICK of all this death and gore already! Heroes are supposed to SAVE the victims, not be helpless to help others, they may as well not even be super heroes then. I swear, more and more the bat-clan are coming across as simply helpless characters in a series of slasher flicks. DC the HERO is supposed to be the STAR of a SUPER HERO comic, NOT the psychotic serial killer villian in all his gory detail.

Possibly the first thing you've ever posted I totally agree with. I mean... is Nightwing going to beat the Joker? No. Did Nightwing shut down the Court of Owls? No. So what we have here is the star of the comic watch the Joker - totally without effort because he's SO TOTALLY AWESOME AND SCARY!!!! - kill all his friends, turn a little girl into a Joker Zombie, get the crap beaten out of him.... And then leave. Where's the catharsis, where's the victory, the final showdown.... Frankly, where's the storytelling?

It's just like last year. Where the exact same thing happened with the Owls. Except at least then, Nightwing was allowed a little victory.

[maxpower00044]

Well, considering the story concludes in Batman #17 for all the characters, we really don't know who has won or lost yet, do we?

[batGRRRl4ever]

Well, considering the story concludes in Batman #17 for all the characters, we really don't know who has won or lost yet, do we?

These aren't slasher flicks where the only point towards victory is simple survival for the main protagonist. These are supposed to be SUPER HERO comic books, and in those if the hero completely fails to save literally hundreds worth of helpless victims (across all the crossover books) who have all died in horrible and gory ways, then that for a SUPER HERO book is an epic FAIL.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Yup, Dick is getting screwed over in terms of having aspects of character narratively cannibalized the same way Babs had happen to her before the New 52 came to being. It seems for every major DC reboot now one of the original bat-family members has to get stripped for proverbial parts, IMO.

It's not like Tim is getting treated any better.

[Conway]

These aren't slasher flicks where the only point towards victory is simple survival for the main protagonist. These are supposed to be SUPER HERO comic books, and in those if the hero completely fails to save literally hundreds worth of helpless victims (across all the crossover books) who have all died in horrible and gory ways, then that for a SUPER HERO book is an epic FAIL.

This. I understand people telling me to not complain if I don't like horror, but I'm not buying I, Vampire, I'm not even buying Swamp Thing, I'm buying Batman a Super-Hero title. In this case Nightwing, the original boy superhero. Every one of the cross-overs is a horror story, and the body count is to the level of a Schwarzenegger film from the '80's. But it's not just dead bodies, they are being presented in a way to purposely shock and gross me out. Stephen King was very clear that the "gross-out" is the lowest form of literary horror. Followed by the "shock" (you know, flaming living horses). We do know who lost, everyone but Joker, because no matter what Snyder does from here out, Joker's already done everything he wanted to and now he'll just get locked up again. This might be the lamest Joker story I've ever read, and with regards to Nightwing, it's done at the cost of almost a century of history.

[Conway]

It's not like Tim is getting treated any better.

Dick is getting Tim's left-overs, Tim is getting everything that Jason didn't take from Dick. I know this Tim isn't the same character, but at least he's getting upgraded with things like creating the TT. Dick is getting 3rd rate villains as arch-enemies, and loosing all of his friends. In fact there isn't one thing about this Dick that can be described as a character upgrade, they've even started downplaying his time as Batman.

[JasonTodd428]

So, Nightwing's support cast are dead

So the ENTIRE circus staff are now dead?

For crying out loud the circus crew has only been Jokerized not out and out killed and Joker toxin has an antidote. They'll probably be fine in the end. Geez. Talk about making mountains out of molehills. In any case all this negativity is starting to grate on me so I'm bowing out of the topic now.

[maxpower00044]

Great thing about Batman and Co. He can be written in tons of different ways. One of those ways is horror (this isn't the first time). I think it's almost funny that people are like "it's super hero comics, it has to be written a certain way". Yeah, no thanks. One of the best things about Batman and Co. is the versatility of the stories his mythos can produce. It's not written "wrong" just because you don't like or agree with it.

[adkal]

For crying out loud the circus crew has only been Jokerized not out and out killed and Joker toxin has an antidote. They'll probably be fine in the end. Geez. Talk about making mountains out of molehills. In any case all this negativity is starting to grate on me so I'm bowing out of the topic now.

um...the kablooey bits?

[Whip Whirlwind]

Dick is getting Tim's left-overs, Tim is getting everything that Jason didn't take from Dick. I know this Tim isn't the same character, but at least he's getting upgraded with things like creating the TT. Dick is getting 3rd rate villains as arch-enemies, and loosing all of his friends. In fact there isn't one thing about this Dick that can be described as a character upgrade, they've even started downplaying his time as Batman.

The funny thing though is that it's all such a grand example of missing the point. In nearly every instance they're taking something that's vital to one of them and giving it to the other, who doesn't really benefit all that much from it.

Like Tim fans don't really care about him founding TT because he's better as a solo bat character. The exact opposite seems to be true of Dick, who works better as a DCU character.

Same with Shiva being shoehorned into Dick's origin, which screws with Tim's history quite a bit, but I feel like every Nightwing fan would rather it have been Deathstroke, or even someone like Lady Vic.

Honestly though I didn't mind RHaTO, because that's one instance where the character has benefitted, but Deathstroke is too far.

[Whip Whirlwind]

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[JasonTodd428]

um...the kablooey bits?

That all happened before the scenes with the circus people because Nightwing was knocked out by a Jokerized Christine before being dragged off by Joker who knows where though.

[maxpower00044]

This. I understand people telling me to not complain if I don't like horror, but I'm not buying I, Vampire, I'm not even buying Swamp Thing, I'm buying Batman a Super-Hero title. In this case Nightwing, the original boy superhero. Every one of the cross-overs is a horror story, and the body count is to the level of a Schwarzenegger film from the '80's. But it's not just dead bodies, they are being presented in a way to purposely shock and gross me out. Stephen King was very clear that the "gross-out" is the lowest form of literary horror. Followed by the "shock" (you know, flaming living horses). We do know who lost, everyone but Joker, because no matter what Snyder does from here out, Joker's already done everything he wanted to and now he'll just get locked up again. This might be the lamest Joker story I've ever read, and with regards to Nightwing, it's done at the cost of almost a century of history.

It's funny how you bring up King. Ya know, the guy who collaborated with Snyder in the first arc of American Vampire, and wrote Skinner Sweet's origin? Plus, King has done tons of "gross out" and "shocking" things in stories like The Shining and Misery. So, I just find that pretty ironic.