View Poll Results: Which is the better ending for Batman?

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  • The Dark Knight Returns

    30 38.96%
  • The Dark Knight Rises

    38 49.35%
  • Other

    9 11.69%
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  1. #61
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    Yeah even if you argue Joker put Batman in retirement, he certainly didn't want to do that. He would have preferred the truth be revealed to the people than Batman taking the blame.

  2. #62
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah even if you argue Joker put Batman in retirement, he certainly didn't want to do that. He would have preferred the truth be revealed to the people than Batman taking the blame.
    I really don't think he cared one way or the other about who Batman was. He just found him compelling.

    Batman's undoing for him was a game, much like the comic version of the character.

    In the end, Joker killed Batman's girl, maimed the DA, killed the commissioner, and put Batman out of commission.

    Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make me like TDK any less, it's just that Rises builds off all of the wrong stuff in TDK in my opinion.

    The 8 year retirement is only the first mistake.

  3. #63
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    Incidentally, was it ever explicitly stated in DKR that Batman retired because of Jason's death. I remember it being implied (when he says 'Never again' in front of Jason's costume), but I don't think it was ever outright stated in the story or confirmed by Miller.

    It might also be possible that Bruce was simply getting physically and psychologically burnt out. During the events of DKR, he was 55 (as stated during the 'funeral'). That makes him 45 at the time of his retirement. Assuming he started out at around 25 (as per Year One, which Miller at least partially intended as a prequel to DKR), that means he spent a little over two decades as Batman. That HAD to take some kind of a toll on him, and Jason's death at the Joker's hands may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

  4. #64
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Really? No love for the Generations ending? :(

  5. #65
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Really? No love for the Generations ending? :(
    I remember enjoying it, but I don't remember it.

    I only read it once when I acquired it.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispacehead View Post
    I really don't think he cared one way or the other about who Batman was. He just found him compelling.

    Batman's undoing for him was a game, much like the comic version of the character.

    In the end, Joker killed Batman's girl, maimed the DA, killed the commissioner, and put Batman out of commission.

    Don't get me wrong, it doesn't make me like TDK any less, it's just that Rises builds off all of the wrong stuff in TDK in my opinion.

    The 8 year retirement is only the first mistake.
    I think the only difference between this and the comics is that the movies actually deal with consequences for the shit Joker does. In the comics he kills hundreds and there are no consequences.

  7. #67
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispacehead View Post
    I remember enjoying it, but I don't remember it.

    I only read it once when I acquired it.
    An 'immortal' Batman meets up with Superman at the edge of the galaxy. After safeguarding the Earth and then the galaxy and bringing about galaxy-wide peace, they set off to help out the rest of the universe. With a smile

  8. #68
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    You can't win against crime, it doesn't go away. So either Nolan's world is beyond fake, or Nolan pointed out with Bane that crime doesn't go away.
    Yeah, and the whole idea that cops were now stuck with nothing to do but pass out traffic tickets was laughable.

    Nolan's 'message' gets confusing between the second and third film. TDK would have you believe the Joker has ushered in a new era of 'freaks' who challenge the supremacy of mob rule, villains who can't be stopped by normal means because they aren't interested in money and don't fear death. So the ending of TDK seems like a perfect setup for a sequel that addresses just how badly Gotham needs a Batman.

    Instead, we get a Gotham that doesn't even need cops, and then it needs James Bond.

    I can't recall the details, but like Bruce, Gordon, Alfred and/or etc kinda do make it clear he stopped for 8 years.
    Nolan and Bale even said that Bruce Wayne has been a virtual cripple since the fall that killed Harvey Dent. Batman hasn't been active since that night.

    BTW, you've got to love that Alfred is okay with Bruce turning into Howard Hughes for eight years, but the minute he finds purpose again he's like, "Screw this, I'm out of here!"
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  9. #69
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post

    BTW, you've got to love that Alfred is okay with Bruce turning into Howard Hughes for eight years, but the minute he finds purpose again he's like, "Screw this, I'm out of here!"
    He wasn't 'okay' with it, though, but had resigned himself to Bruce's depression which had been brought about by the lie he had allowed him to believe. He was 'encouraged' by the renewed life Bruce had when he was 'on the hunt' but knew Bruce was in no condition to do the things he had done before - that no matter how well trained he had been, after being 'out of the game' for so many years he was not at the level he used to be. It was Bruce's 'deathwish' that pulled Alfred back, made him reveal the secret, and then step aside.

  10. #70
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    He wasn't 'okay' with it, though, but had resigned himself to Bruce's depression which had been brought about by the lie he had allowed him to believe. He was 'encouraged' by the renewed life Bruce had when he was 'on the hunt' but knew Bruce was in no condition to do the things he had done before - that no matter how well trained he had been, after being 'out of the game' for so many years he was not at the level he used to be. It was Bruce's 'deathwish' that pulled Alfred back, made him reveal the secret, and then step aside.
    I get what Nolan was going for, but he butchered all the beats. Batman's 'fall' lacks significance because he's already fallen when the film begins. As opposed to Knightfall where Bane methodically breaks a Batman who was in peak condition before he got sick and fought through the Arkham escapees.

    I just think the film would have been more effective if he'd taken more cues from Knightfall.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  11. #71
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    No disagreement from me on that part - when I was watching the movie I couldn't help but think that Bruce was being an arrogant idiot.

  12. #72
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    BTW, you've got to love that Alfred is okay with Bruce turning into Howard Hughes for eight years, but the minute he finds purpose again he's like, "Screw this, I'm out of here!"
    Ha! Nice one. Didn't think about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I think the only difference between this and the comics is that the movies actually deal with consequences for the shit Joker does.
    I thought the comics dealt with the impact of Joker's handywork nicely. (i.e. Bruce's period of grief after Jason's death, Gordon's after Sarah, Barbara's paralysis...)

    I think the big difference between the comics and the movies is that Nolan is trying to make Bruce Wayne too real. I don't want to see a movie about the Quarterback who retires from his injuries only to return for one final game as if his injuries never existed. I really hated the way he overstated Bruce's injuries and then just ignored them upon his return. The comics make Bruce out to be super human, but we still feel the weight of his struggles in the better books. I just didn't feel any of that in Rises. I thought the movie had it's moments but overall, I felt it was rushed, and cluttered and that it strayed to far off the leash in regards to the lore I prefer.

    Rises reminds me of Quantum of Solace. Just a clusterf*** of a film. Imho, of course.
    Last edited by ispacehead; 01-23-2013 at 08:49 AM.

  13. #73
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    The comics probably went too far in dealing with the after effects of the Joker's attacks, honestly. Of course it doesn't help that DC has been tripping over themselves for the past twenty years to top KILLING JOKE's impact. It got ridiculous at the point he offed Sarah Essen-Gordon.

    You're exactly right, ispacehead: Nolan went too far in terms of how bad Bruce's leg injuries were, added a spinal injury, and then dismissed it with a prison pep talk.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The comics probably went too far in dealing with the after effects of the Joker's attacks, honestly. Of course it doesn't help that DC has been tripping over themselves for the past twenty years to top KILLING JOKE's impact. It got ridiculous at the point he offed Sarah Essen-Gordon.

    You're exactly right, ispacehead: Nolan went too far in terms of how bad Bruce's leg injuries were, added a spinal injury, and then dismissed it with a prison pep talk.
    Glad I'm not the only one to feel this way.

    I actually enjoyed NML and thought Sarah's death was particulary well written. Better than Jason's, or what happened to Babs anyway.

  15. #75
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You're exactly right, ispacehead: Nolan went too far in terms of how bad Bruce's leg injuries were, added a spinal injury, and then dismissed it with a prison pep talk.
    Psh, you're so dismissive of his shoulder injuries..

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