1st appearance or 1st solo issue?

[the Dagman]

Which is why I still have some hope of completing my Captain America and Iron Man runs. Since the first issues of each of their original series aren't their first appearances, the prices have not gotten so astronomically high as to keep them out of my reach.

However, the one that irritates me to no end is Moon Knight. C-List character at best, but dang near impossible finding his first appearance in high grade that you won't have to give up serious $$ for.

Ah, kids these days.

You see, back in the early 80's Moon Knight wasn't a "C-List character at best". The book was something of a sleeper hit at the start there and the Moench/Sienkiewicz run was stellar. It did so well that it was one of the first small handful of books Marvel made direct only and started to print it on better paper using more than 4 colors. Sienkiewicz started as something of a "Neal Adams knockoff", but really started exploring his style during this run and his later run on New Mutants to become something altogether unique. And that work cemented him as an illustrating legend.

"C-List character at best" - LOL. You guys kill me how you say these things with no idea of the real history involved.

[Richard Bishop]

Ah, kids these days.

You see, back in the early 80's Moon Knight wasn't a "C-List character at best". The book was something of a sleeper hit at the start there and the Moench/Sienkiewicz run was stellar. It did so well that it was one of the first small handful of books Marvel made direct only and started to print it on better paper using more than 4 colors. Sienkiewicz started as something of a "Neal Adams knockoff", but really started exploring his style during this run and his later run on New Mutants to become something altogether unique. And that work cemented him as an illustrating legend.

"C-List character at best" - LOL. You guys kill me how you say these things with no idea of the real history involved.

Oh, I'm well aware of Moon Knight's early days, and while his original solo book was a relative success (although one could argue that pulling the book from newsstand distribution and going direct-only was not necessarily a sign the book was doing well, but rather to utilize a printing method that better served Sienkiewicz's work as well as allow Moench to write darker stories than the typical Marvel fare at the time; let's be honest, if the book was doing great numbers at the newsstand, why would Marvel limit its distribution, and thus sales?). As far as their run being "stellar", parts of it certainly are (Stained Glass Scarlet and Black Spectre led to good stories, and the Morpheus issues are top-notch), but some of it, IMO, is a bit of a slog to read (the Werewolves, any appearance by Bushman, the back-up stories from the issues in the teens).

Since then, he's starred in a fairly long-running second series (although books from the '90's are hard to gauge success-wise, as publishers were flooding the market with books that were relatively inexpensive to produce as a way of cornering market share), a third series (Huston's run) that did OK, then two more solo series, neither of which lasted more than 1 year (including one produced by Bendis/Meleev that was trying to recapture their success from Daredevil but failed).

If you consider Wolverine, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor and Captain America on the "A-List", then characters like Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, and Hulk (Banner, not red or female) as Marvel's "B-List" stars, how could you possibly put Moon Knight any higher than "C-List", particularly when I haven't even gotten into Black Panther, Hawkeye, Ghost Rider, Dr. Strange, or any X-character other than Wolverine? I'm sorry, but my reference to Moon Knight being "C-List" may actually be on the kind side; he's a decent supporting character in a team book (such as his recent stint in Secret Avengers or his early time with the WCA).

And as far as "kids" these days or not knowing Marvel history, you have absolutely no idea what I or others bring to the table in terms of age or knowledge of comics; besides having read and collected comics for over 30 years now (including every issue of every Moon Knight series up to Bendis' latest one), I've both worked in and managed comic book shops in my past, so you may want to be a little less condescending in the future.

[gsy971]

back to my original inquiry
i just looked through my Ghost Rider #2 which is Son of Satan's 1st appearance but what a dissapointment! He was portrayed without his costume nor his powers until a last box shows his transformation but ONLY SHOWS HIS ONE BOOT up to his shin! Then it cut back to Ghost Ride's main storyline. Is this what we consider 1st appearance? Technically yes it is a 1st app but with no real visual of the character? Ah the problems in my life!

[Richard Bishop]

back to my original inquiry
i just looked through my Ghost Rider #2 which is Son of Satan's 1st appearance but what a dissapointment! He was portrayed without his costume nor his powers until a last box shows his transformation but ONLY SHOWS HIS ONE BOOT up to his shin! Then it cut back to Ghost Ride's main storyline. Is this what we consider 1st appearance? Technically yes it is a 1st app but with no real visual of the character? Ah the problems in my life!

Yes, the dreaded "partial" appearance, which throws the whole system out of whack. Not being a DC fan, I can't speak for them, but Marvel has done this many times, with Wolverine being the most famous one (Incredible Hulk #180 is first partial, with #181 being the first full) but also with characters like Venom and even Mystique back in the day. They would tease them an issue or two ahead of their first full appearance, showing a hand, foot, or just a shadow, as they were just telling a story, and a slow reveal made sense.

This was particular fun with the introduction of Carnage in Amazing Spider-Man. The issue where Cletus Kasady first appeared (#344) was up in price for a while, and then when he merged with the second symbiote and became Carnage, it was a partial appearance in #360, with the first full appearance in #361, which was the money book and considered the true first appearance of the character.

All this means nothing to Marvel, as the books are already produced and sold at that point, but it makes all kinds of trouble on the secondary market if a teased or slowly-revealed character turns out to be a hot property. For collectors, it sucks, because those "teaser" issues before the first full appearance can be pricey.

[gsy971]

at least in Hulk #180 they show a full appearance of wolvy head to toe with dialogue
think i am going for the Marvel Preview SoS