Deconstruction and comics

[Eumenides]

The Epting, by contrast, is a lot more grounded, and for the type of story it's telling (Brubaker is mixing in a kind of noir aesthetic with Bucky's inner monologue there), it works very well.

The Epting panels are just a loose collection of stills that don't tell a story. They're not grounded, they're static, there's no life or energy in these figures, it's like time froze around them and turned them into statues. I'm not convinced by the 'noir aesthetic' either; a noir movie would show action; a hardboiled novel would describe action. Epting is just drawing figures frozen in poses.

The Kirby is spectacular, though. Not his best, but still a lot of fun to look at. Even though the images are static and less connected than the Epting piece, they're still brimming with so much energy you feel like they're going to explode.

How are they more static and less connected than Epting's page? Nearly each movement is captured by Kirby, there's continuity between the figures' movements. In Epting's case instead, Bucky punches the air, there's a guy coming from behind him with a stick, and the next panel shows him punching someone in front of him. What? Where did the guy behind him with a stick disappear into? That's sloppy, that makes no sense.

[Eumenides]

People generally agree that Plastic Man was good, right? I mean those few who had ever read it. Why is Thor so much more popular than Plastic Man then?

I can't believe that argument, people still use it? More people have watched Transformers than Citizen Kane, but when it's time to make the lists of best movies, Citizen Kane tends to top it. Like cinema, comics has its scholars and academics who know what's good and what's not. Obviously you're just into populist material and the history of this medium doesn't interest you very much, but fortunately you're not the one writing books and essays about the history of comics so your ignorance is irritating but harmless.

[Darrell D.]

Hell, Hugo Pratt, Moebius, & Alberto Breccia > Kirby

I LOVE Kirby, and I cannot argue with this.

[Eumenides]

We've wandered far astray from deconstruction. Threads drift. Let a smile be your umbrella.

Sadly we have, to start a discussion about European vs. American comics that makes little sense. I admire Moebius as much as anyone else, but to praise him at the expense of Kirby is ridiculous. European comics have different standards, not necessarily better in my opinion, they're just produced under different ways: artists usually draw only 48 pages a year, their pages are bigger allowing them to create great city landscapes and more absorbing backgrounds. What Kirby achieved with the constraints he had is amazing!

I'm also appalled by the lack of historical interest in American comics. Ironically those who consider European comics fail to appreciate how American comics were also influential and beloved in Europe. There's Hugo Pratt, for instance, who was influenced by Eisner, Alex Raymond, Milton Caniff and Lyman Young. In the pages of Valentina, the great Guido Crepax paid tribute to Lee and Kirby and Lee Falk's Phantom and Mandrake, two American comics that were always more popular in Europe. Carl Barks is greatly admired in Europe too, where Disney comics were always more popular too. Winsor McCay had exhibits in the Louvre. And a few years ago the Italian newspaper Reppublica published a collection of 'great classics of comics' that included Superman, the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, Mandrake and the Phantom, Dick Tracy, Daredevil, Popeye, Pogo and others. So obviously this general contempt for old American comics is not shared by those who actually know and love the medium.

[Johnny P. Sartre]

Oh lord, here we go again.

Other than Dupont (and he's mild about his complaints), no one is holding anyone in contempt and I know my historical content blah blah blah. Please stop putting attitudes and words in our mouths.

No one here is shitting over other creators achievements because some enjoy someone else more than those creators.

And hell, I LOVE manga and Euro comics and know how influential American comics were to their development but they took those influences and did them better. Now saying that does not take away from the great achievements--and me recognizing and enjoying those achievements--of the great American comic creators.

[cactusmaac]

Obviously I'm going to cherry-pick examples. If I were defending the 19th century novel against modern novels, I wouldn't invoke the anonymous guy who wrote The String of Pearls; I'd invoke Tolstoy, Melville, Dostoevsky, Flaubert, etc.

I'm not sure sure why you turning my point that "A lot of old comics were crap" into "All old comics are crap". That's not what I said. There's not much being published today that compares with Tintin for example.

The proportion of bad comics nowadays is probably the same, inside and outside the Big Two, superhero or non-superhero. And for me, more important is that past comics, with their lower expectations, excelled at being what they were meant to be: children's comics. Today's comics strive to be mature, intellectual comics and mostly fail and turn into immature, pretentious rubbish. Everyone wants to be Alan Moore and all fail, whereas in the past they just wanted to entertain kids and succeeded. More shouldn't be required of those who do their jobs well.

Which are the intellectual strivers that turn into rubbish? Name some titles. I've seen a few interviews where past creators defend sub-par work or decry the stories of today by saying they were making entertainment for kids. Well, even when we were kids we could tell they were offering crap.

But quality vs quality aside, has Moebius done anything that's as gigantic, mythic, and poignant as the New Gods? Kirby pretty much created an entire mythology that speaks to the nuances of our current era.

Dunno. The only time any of the New Gods seemed special to me was when Morrison was writing Darkseid in Rock Of Ages.

[dupersuper]

"I'm not, you are!"

If you were old enough to be reading comics in the 90s, you're too old to be behaving like this, dude.

You'd also think he'd be old enough to know his grammar...

[dupersuper]

Ahh, but Superman cant draw fer shit

I tried to respond to this humorously with pictures I know exist of Superman drawing, but funny thing: googling Superman drawing just gets you lots of drawings of Superman.

I think Superman's cape is probably the safest of all capes to tug on.

Sorry, Jim Croce.

Unless maybe you're already annoying him...

[dupont2005]

I can't believe that argument, people still use it? More people have watched Transformers than Citizen Kane, but when it's time to make the lists of best movies, Citizen Kane tends to top it. Like cinema, comics has its scholars and academics who know what's good and what's not. Obviously you're just into populist material and the history of this medium doesn't interest you very much, but fortunately you're not the one writing books and essays about the history of comics so your ignorance is irritating but harmless.

That must be the only post of mine you've read in the entire thread, because I was making the same exact argument as you. And I wouldn't say I'm all that into populist material. I read a few mainstream comics, but I think Walking Dead is the only one I read that cracks the Diamond Top 100