Kraven's Last Hunt ... Overrated?

**Mister Mets** · 01-19-2013, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols

Top 10 lists are tough because there are sooo many great stories that I'm bound to leave some out, but here's a basic list.

1. Master Planner
2. The Night Gwen Stacy Died
3. ASM 39-40
4. Stern's Hobgoblin arc
5. Amazing Fantasy 15
6. ASM 655
7. The Child Within
8. SSM 200
9. Original black costume saga
10. Dying Wish (?)

This list is subject to change, but the first two are without question.

Technically, all you said was that you could come up with ten stories that were better.

So a top ten list was unnecessary, although it's very much appreciated.

**Spidey808** · 01-20-2013, 03:45 AM

If we're talking about underrated stories then Unscheduled Stop (#578-579) is the one to go with

Its imo Top Ten story, and easily the best story since BND began. Mark Waid dialogue combined with godly Marcos Martin pencils, and first appearance of JJJ sr.

**David Walton** · 01-20-2013, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by oldschool

Nice post----and you might be right. Though, thinking on it some more, what may be altering my perception even moreso is the knowledge that JMD wrote (or at least drafted) this story to be a Batman/Hugo Strange tale and then retrofitted it to Spidey. Before that knowledge, I thought the story was on my short list of best Spidey stories ever so, as I said, you may have a very good point.

Believe it or not, JMD originally pitched the buried alive concept for a Wonder Man story!

But I think it's a stretch to say the story is 'retrofitted' for Spidey. It's not as though JMD wrote a fill-in-the-blank tale, replacing Hugo Strange with Kraven and Alfred with Mary Jane. Whatever the concept was before, it's very clearly a Spidey story on the page.

And all concepts are 'interchangeable' at the basic level. You could just as easily do a story about Iron Man facing a threat that's clearly out of his league, and it would quickly become something different than "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" because of his worldview and how he interacts with his environment.

**Confuzzled Mutie** · 01-20-2013, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Taylor

No, its not the best Spider-Man story. Its the best Kraven story, and arguably the best Spider-marriage story.

Spectacular Spider-Man #200 and To Have and To Hold give it a run for the bolded part. Though yes, KLH is one of the best stories to showcase how much MJ's love motivates Peter to push himself and be the best man, and in turn, Spider-Man, that he can ever be.

**Mister Mets** · 01-20-2013, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by David Walton

Believe it or not, JMD originally pitched the buried alive concept for a Wonder Man story!

But I think it's a stretch to say the story is 'retrofitted' for Spidey. It's not as though JMD wrote a fill-in-the-blank tale, replacing Hugo Strange with Kraven and Alfred with Mary Jane. Whatever the concept was before, it's very clearly a Spidey story on the page.

And all concepts are 'interchangeable' at the basic level. You could just as easily do a story about Iron Man facing a threat that's clearly out of his league, and it would quickly become something different than "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" because of his worldview and how he interacts with his environment.

Let's not forget that "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" was JMS's version of the rubble scene from the Master Planner saga.

Although I think it also borrowed a lot from Daredevil #7, an early story in which the hero was clearly outclassed, and just kept fighting.

**Fire Knight** · 01-20-2013, 11:49 AM

I think KLH is great, it's surely the best Kraven story but I won't rank it as the greatest Spider-Man story

Originally Posted by Keehar

6. The storyline. Kraven should not have been allowed to die before seeing what Spidey was really all about. Kraven labored throughout the story to vainly prove himself Spidey's superior. And died believing he was. What he needed to see was that Spidey was and always would be his superior, because he had what Kraven didn't- the inner strength of mind and heart that made Spidey go beyond his powers. that's why Spidey always overcame the odds and why he was always able to defeat Kraven. IF Kraven had seen this and with this realiztion decided to kill himself that'd be one thing. But such as it was, the story was really little more than a pointless, sullen skirmish that meant nothing, other than to point spidey into the very troubled direction that he's in now.

I think what happened in final part of the story was no longer mattered to Kraven because he already won.

He beat Spider-Man, he "killed" him. Spider-Man's own life was literally in his hands and he defeated Vermin whom spidey can't beat on his own then when spidey just came back from "the death" he forced him to fight Vermin and almost died if not for Kraven's intervention so in that sense Kraven won, the game is over and that's all that mattered to him.

**Kevin Nichols** · 01-20-2013, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Fire Knight

Kraven won

Wait... you mean... do you mean that EVIL WON?!?!

DAMN YOU, DEMATTEIS!!!!!!

**Voulge** · 01-20-2013, 11:10 PM

I think this is the best Spider-Man story ever written.

The emotion the drawing and the story are all top notch.

The page were Kraven commits suicide is such a beautfull page and his last words "they said my motehr was insane" BLAM.

Awesome.

**wleakr** · 01-21-2013, 08:31 AM

I can't say that KLH is in my top 10 of great stories. I did enjoy it, but like some others have said, the story felt "odd" and out of place from typical Spiderman at that time. Matter of fact, I remember it more like "We stop our regular programming to bring you this side tale of our hero". Because whatever was the primary focus of book got preempted for this 6 part running story and then it was followed up with a 3 parter and then we returned to the regular focus of the book.

The way the book was written, no using any currently running subplots, very narrow focused in the characters used, etc, it just felt like a one-shot (but done in 6 parts). Kraven comes out of left field with his motives...not totally out of character, but kinda like "Why hasn't you done this til now?".

I think the story is rated so high, because you can't help but remember how different it was in tone compared to the Spidey stories told at the time plus the end result with Kraven...whereas stories told in typical spidey fashion might be harder to recall...I remember really enjoying Amz can't recall the issue number but it was a secret wars tie-in that involved a bet between Beyonder and Mephisto...probably not the most remembered story but I read it over and over...

**David Walton** · 01-21-2013, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols

Wait... you mean... do you mean that EVIL WON?!?!

Nah. Kraven only won in his own mind...and he knew even that was an illusion. DeMatteis has said Kraven's line "They said my mother was insane" is intended to convey that deep down Kraven knows he's insane, too...and so is his suicide.

**Ben Smith** · 01-21-2013, 11:38 PM

You could argue that anything that has been called the "best ever" is by definition overrated.

but I like KLH, Zeck rules

**Ben Smith** · 01-21-2013, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by David Walton

Nah. Kraven only won in his own mind...

except for the part where he "killed" Spider-Man and the only reason he lived was because he wanted him to.

**David Walton** · 01-23-2013, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ben Smith

except for the part where he "killed" Spider-Man and the only reason he lived was because he wanted him to.

Yeah, but Spider-Man could have killed Kraven a thousand times over if he'd wanted to, so it's not like he proved anything by bringing the score to Spidey: A Gazillion, Kraven: One.