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  1. #46
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    I love you already.

    *Coughs*

    Ahem, that was a little strange for me.

  2. #47
    Senior Member Deep_Sleeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebezial View Post
    no worries, but i am curious, from your fear, i am inclined to assume you havent really read ron's and my witchblade run? i am not a fan of metal bikinis, when i drew witchblade it was a full armor combined with a category 5 force of nature badassery.

    see when it comes to sexuality and sexyness in comics, like in movies i feel it serves it's purpose best when earned. so it is not my primary concern to make characters sexy when fighhting a massive threat

    now for some armor examples from ravine, you ahve i presume seen lynn's initial dragoon armor. it is a lightened version of a standard dregyan light battlearmor. lightened because it used to have additional plating...its a story element so i wont go deeper into it.

    this is what she wears from issue 3 onwards
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=27
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=26
    and here is the original shot of the model of the armor i built in 3d. http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=28


    arianna for instance usually wears this armor and is very reluctant to show her skin
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/c...asar-133822743
    and here is why
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=33


    and some more examples. reson why i am showing these is because i know how female characters have been treated generally in fantasy comics. hell there are hundreds of jokes based on the skimpyness of female armor in fantasy comics and games

    ravine does not rely on that

    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=63
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...0002183&qo=110
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/r...10002183&qo=14

    see thing is, if i will handle sexuality and sexyness in comics i will do it right, i have a comic about that , it is called sunstone. ravine is an epic fantasy so my motivations in ravine are of a quite different nature :)
    :Sadface:

    Stop being so mature!

    Kidding. I love a fair amount of sexuality in my fantasy, but the lack of which is what made the Lord of the Rings movies as big as it is. I am confident you are making all the right decisions with this book. I cannot wait for February to arrive. This book is as good as bought by me.
    Olivier Coipel - The best damned artist on the planet!

    Shout out to Kev Walker! You're doing a hell of a job!

    Find & follow me on Twitter & Instagram. Check out arfguy

  3. #48
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    ill just publish sunstone and in the future sell them as a duo pack, you get one for your epic fantasy story needs, and other for introspection of sexuality, fetishes and relationship needs! its a perfect combo!

  4. #49
    Askani'son drakeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnravThreads View Post
    Does it? Does it really? I think you'll find there's as many women who feel it's sexist, pointless and panders to the streotypical teen male demographic (i.e. sell a comic with boobs), and in fact there's a growing resistance from male writers too, including Peter V. Brett who has previously done Red Sonja: Blue and the upcoming Red Sonja: Unchained, in which she won't actually be wearing her chainmail bikini.

    A good story in a comic is worthless if the art is poor, and good art is worthless if the writing is poor.
    Like I said, and you confirmed with your own post its a 50/50 difference, as with most things in life. There are those girls who enjoy the sexy, and other who dont. In the end though, the display of skin will mean nothing if the story and depth isnt there. When I read sequential storytelling I dont notice the difference becasue I really dont care. I go for the plot, not the pandering, wether it be sex or racial themes. Plot is the driving focus, and when it comes to art, sexy or not its about the style and what the artist is trying to convey from a storytelling standpoint.

    As for my own writing, I enjoy strong female characters with depth and personality without any overdone sexual themes. But Im also open to pretty much everything, cause I look at it all from a non judgemental viewpoint.

  5. #50
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    I didn't say it was a 50/50 thing. Chances are that there's actually more women who find it wrong than who find it "empowering". Simply put, a woman in a skimpy outfit is not empowering. A woman who is in charge of her sexuality is empowering. Those are two different things.

    And a strong woman can be badly written. What comics, in particular, need is well-written women.

  6. #51
    Senior Member Arvandor's Avatar
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    This has the potential to degenerate into a nasty argument. The subject too often does. I hope not. Sejic's art appeals to those of us on both sides. Another reason he's such a legend.
    virtue untested is innocence.
    When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember it is still an evil.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnravThreads View Post
    I didn't say it was a 50/50 thing. Chances are that there's actually more women who find it wrong than who find it "empowering". Simply put, a woman in a skimpy outfit is not empowering. A woman who is in charge of her sexuality is empowering. Those are two different things.

    And a strong woman can be badly written. What comics, in particular, need is well-written women.
    writing is a part of the problem, but artistry is the other side to this coin
    when an artist is determined to the goal of art serving the story and not the fans, even the skimpy dressed woman radiates badassery.

    unfortunately when that is not the case, all chances of redemption go down the drain
    red sonja to me embodies that perfectly, alongside wonder woman. here you have two characters in what is, lets face it skimpy clothing. in the hands onf one artist they will look objectified, while another will make you forget about that fact and make them be badass.

    now this is not judging the artists. see we all start from somewhere, and from our influences we find our own path. i started as a clone of michael turner, and with time developed my own approach, and my part is one where characters serve the story, and i serve the characters

    here are a few examples of the aforementioned red sonja and wonder woman
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/i...38836020&qo=30
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/a...38836002&qo=11
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/t...38836002&qo=13
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/h...38836002&qo=19
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/i...38836002&qo=15
    and another 3 chars who have had their problems over time
    http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/t...38836002&qo=28

    so yeah while the skimpy outfits dont do much for the feeling of empowerment, with enough of maturity of artist and writer combined, you can make anything into a great story :)

  8. #53
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    As skimpy costume can still look really badass. I mean, look at She-Hulk for a third example. Some of her costumes have been along the lines of swimsuits, yet she always looked tough in them.

    The thing is, Red Sonja's costume doesn't work on any level. She's not got any powers or anything like that, so on levels of logic and practicality, her costume can be written off. It doesn't work, it doesn't make sense. it's there, simply, to titillate. It doesn't protect her in combat, it doesn't give her cover from the elements, it doesn't do anything. If she wore it in the bedroom, that would be fine. But she wears it on the battlefield.

    Wonder Woman's costume is more covering, somewhat more practical, yet still leaves her somewhat exposed and doesn't offer much in the way of "support" up there (and when you consider she's often drawn by artists with a love for exaggerated bust lines, it's a bit of a problem). Unlike Red Sonja's costume, it doesn't draw your attention to her sexual features. They might be drawn to enhance them, certainly, but they're not where the focus lies.

    Both are problematic, both could be empowering to wear, but neither Wonder Woman nor Red Sonja's costumes are - themselves - empowering. Wonder Woman's costume stands out as problematic all the more because she's involved in numerous superhero teams in which the male characters are fully clad (sometimes even wearing masks), whereas the women typically have some flesh on display. That's not, in any way, right.

    But it's clear Mr Sejic thinks about what he's doing, his approach and the appropriateness of certain designs. *That*, maybe to me alone, gives me more confidence in this title than anything else, or at least makes me see him as a creator worth following and supporting.

  9. #54
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    god knows i made my share of jokes on the topic of female armor .. hell my most recent one concerned a funny paradox of superman- bulletproof , wearing a kryptonian armor, while wonderwoman- not bulletproof wears a bodice XD. but hey, with time i have hope it will get better. we had faaar worse :/

  10. #55
    Senior Member Deep_Sleeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebezial View Post
    ill just publish sunstone and in the future sell them as a duo pack, you get one for your epic fantasy story needs, and other for introspection of sexuality, fetishes and relationship needs! its a perfect combo!
    Once again...stop being so logical and creative ;)

    I would buy a published Sunstone. I tried to view it on DeviantART and it said I have to register or something. I'm registered with more things than I can remember.

    Seriously, though...I am very excited about Ravine. When is the exact release date again?
    Olivier Coipel - The best damned artist on the planet!

    Shout out to Kev Walker! You're doing a hell of a job!

    Find & follow me on Twitter & Instagram. Check out arfguy

  11. #56
    Askani'son drakeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnravThreads View Post
    I didn't say it was a 50/50 thing. Chances are that there's actually more women who find it wrong than who find it "empowering". Simply put, a woman in a skimpy outfit is not empowering. A woman who is in charge of her sexuality is empowering. Those are two different things.

    And a strong woman can be badly written. What comics, in particular, need is well-written women.
    I hope you dont miss the point that I agree with you. My views are the same as yours on a personal level. What I am pointing out is a non judgemental standing on various other viewpoints. Some like it and some dont. And I never said empowered women in skimpy suits. I said strong females comfortable in thier own sexuality. Sexuality can be shown with someone (and my thoughts are on both males and females; just check out any issue of Gambit lol) wearing a swimsuit or a parka.

    Personally a facial expression is sometimes all that is needed to display ones sexulaity. Its all about personality and the language of the eyes.

    My writing has strong female personalitys (not nessissarily muscle strong mind you) who convey thier inner fire through action and emotion. You will never see me writing a cliche female always in need of saving from the gallant hero, or a bubble gum blonde stero type. Cause I cant stand them in real life either lol

  12. #57
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    But if you're only writing "strong females", you're not writing the full spectrum of women. Not all women are strong, and not all strong women are good characters. Being a "strong female" doesn't mean your character is going to be well-written, interesting or even good.

    As I've said in this topic and the one where I rip into Aspen Comics, what we need - inside and outside the comic book industry - is well-written female characters. Sometimes they will be weak, other times they will be strong. Maybe they'll be neither. But they need to be well-written above anything else. And, particularly in comics, that needs to go hand-in-hand with the art.

  13. #58
    Askani'son drakeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnravThreads View Post
    But if you're only writing "strong females", you're not writing the full spectrum of women. Not all women are strong, and not all strong women are good characters. Being a "strong female" doesn't mean your character is going to be well-written, interesting or even good.

    As I've said in this topic and the one where I rip into Aspen Comics, what we need - inside and outside the comic book industry - is well-written female characters. Sometimes they will be weak, other times they will be strong. Maybe they'll be neither. But they need to be well-written above anything else. And, particularly in comics, that needs to go hand-in-hand with the art.
    Before you suggest something like that how about you try reading what I have written. I never said I wrote only strong females, I said that it HAD strong females, which you must be interperting wrong since my writing conveys many different personality types, and according to everyone that has critiqued my work all my characters are well written. When I say "strong" I am referring to "real" characters and not a stero type "fan-fic" female that is a bad writers personal titilation.

    Trust me, not all my characters are strong.


    Heres a link to my writing if anyone is interested: http://drakeon.elfwood.com/Elfsong-Part-1.3553258.html
    Last edited by drakeon; 01-27-2013 at 03:14 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Sleeper View Post
    Once again...stop being so logical and creative ;)

    I would buy a published Sunstone. I tried to view it on DeviantART and it said I have to register or something. I'm registered with more things than I can remember.

    Seriously, though...I am very excited about Ravine. When is the exact release date again?
    I registered just to read it. Very interesting stuff. I'd definitely buy that in print.

  15. #60
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drakeon View Post
    Before you suggest something like that how about you try reading what I have written. I never said I wrote only strong females, I said that it HAD strong females, which you must be interperting wrong since my writing conveys many different personality types, and according to everyone that has critiqued my work all my characters are well written. When I say "strong" I am referring to "real" characters and not a stero type "fan-fic" female that is a bad writers personal titilation.
    You didn't say otherwise, and your criticisms of two (admittedly overdone) tropes relating to female characters led me to assume. I am, however, not entirely correct in my assumption.

    Regardless, 'strong' does not mean 'real'. A woman who wants men to do everything for her is as 'real' as a woman who takes the initiative, rolls up her sleeves and gets on with it herself. Both types exist, both types are equally valid.

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