Marvel NOW Avengers vs Nu 52 JLA

[thestrongestonethereis]

Avengers 4, if you want to go all LeVar Burton on this mother.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8...004zone013.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1...004zone014.jpg

It's.. kinda funky in that I couldn't tell you how he's holding the worlds apart by floating inbetween them and screaming and holding his arms out, and yet they're not colliding so he's doing /something/, but the universe does totally end on the next page. Though I'm fairly certain the intent is not that he's like... immune to anything short of universal destruction, because there is straight up no way they are going to be portraying him anything like that at all in future issues. They weren't portraying him like that in the issue before, where shots from the Hulk could hurt him.

That seems like a bit of a double standard given that Superman was recently shown straining to stop a falling aircraft carrier with Wonder Woman's assistance and has been batted around by Wonder Woman (who in her solo series comes off as someone on about Luke Cage's level physically).

Why is the Earth bench-pressing feat taken as the baseline measure of Superman's strength when obviously he isn't going to be portrayed like that 99% of the time either?

[Beadle]

That seems like a bit of a double standard given that Superman was recently shown straining to stop a falling aircraft carrier with Wonder Woman's assistance and has been batted around by Wonder Woman (who in her solo series comes off as someone on about Luke Cage's level physically).

Why is the Earth bench-pressing feat taken as the baseline measure of Superman's strength when obviously he isn't going to be portrayed like that 99% of the time either?

Because there's not enough evidence in nu52 to contradict it, and to say it's inconsistent with his usual high-end portrayals. The aircraft-carrier stuff could just as easily be a lowball showing (I can't believe I actually typed that - catching a falling aircraft carrier is a "low" showing... *shudder*).

If we have a few years of nu-Supes repeatedly failing to do things anywhere near that level, it may end up being regarded as SMvFL. But for now, given the paucity of evidence for nu-Supes, it stands as a legitimate, high-end feat.

[thestrongestonethereis]

Because there's not enough evidence in nu52 to contradict it, and to say it's inconsistent with his usual high-end portrayals. The aircraft-carrier stuff could just as easily be a lowball showing (I can't believe I actually typed that - catching a falling aircraft carrier is a "low" showing... *shudder*).

If we have a few years of nu-Supes repeatedly failing to do things anywhere near that level, it may end up being regarded as SMvFL. But for now, given the paucity of evidence for nu-Supes, it stands as a legitimate, high-end feat.

As opposed to Hyperion who has essentially been in two issues thus-far? That doesn't really work as a justification as far as i can see. And from what we've seen of Nu-Superman the bench press Earth thing seems like the pretty big outlier. Especially if you are going to use combat feats to argue against environmental feats as was done in the case of Hyperion (i.e. hurt by Hulk != tougher than universal destruction).

Basically though this sort of problem that plagues all "fighting boards" that focus excessively on feats IMO. I imagine i'm in the minority on that one however.

[Beadle]

Well if we didn't focus on feats, it'd come down to:

"Batman beats Hulk because I like him more." or "Because he'd find a way. He's Batman."

And then things escalate into arguments about who is the better character, which never leads to good places. This way we stand a chance of getting a consensus result without emotion getting in the way. It doesn't always work, but then democracy doesn't always work. It's just the best system we have at our disposal.

[Siriel]

There are lots of problems with our system.

It's silly, for starters, because we argue about which fictional character would win. It involves ignoring stuff and taking into account things that writers do not.

It involves pretending that the abilities of characters in fiction are consistent and make sense.

It's sometimes unfair in how it screws over characters who don't show much but get lots of hype. Taken to it's logical conclusion, it can lead to stuff like a powerful fictional deity getting beaten by a dog.

But it's fun to debate by it, for me and presumably the other people who post here. And because it's fun, we continue to use it.

What does it matter if that's not how things would go in a story?

[Pendaran]

That seems like a bit of a double standard given that Superman was recently shown straining to stop a falling aircraft carrier with Wonder Woman's assistance and has been batted around by Wonder Woman (who in her solo series comes off as someone on about Luke Cage's level physically).

Why is the Earth bench-pressing feat taken as the baseline measure of Superman's strength when obviously he isn't going to be portrayed like that 99% of the time either?

Actually for Superman it came down to that he had no previous showings to fly all that badly in the face of it, because... he explicitly was increasing in power over the five years of his nu52 continuity as a called out part of his shtick, just before this becomes some meme. That second part is pretttty key. There's of course also a third part of that if, even with that caveat, Superman was shown as /enduring universal destruction/, I'd still all the same be going "even with a note of an increasing over time power set, there's like fuck all to suggest it's supposed to go higher than any other incarnation of Superman ever or anything beyond any showing he will probably have before or since". Which makes your analogy pretty much terrible, in that you're comparing hefting a planet, to a guy enduring a universe being destroyed as far as claiming they are of equal weight, and should be equally accepted. You illustrate thereby why we often do things here the way we do them.

But putting that aside for a moment, for Hyperion, who so far has no such thing in his presentation as far as "increasing power over time" or something like that, it leaves the problem then of his first showing involving being nowhere near as powerful. If he goes on to rack up other showings in line with his second demonstration of stuff, well, that's certainly a thing that will have to be noted. If he doesn't, then that too, is certainly a thing that will have to be noted.

I mean I don't really have any problem with the holding worlds apart thing as something he did other than that it would have been nice to show it more coherently, but the enduring universal destruction would make him nigh unto the Fury+. And there's nothing in his presentation or context to suggest that's intended by way of him.

[Captain Morgan]

No, you have NOT called me on this even once, much less 5 times. I have REPEATEDLY asked for speed feats for NuWW, in multiple threads, since everyone seems to handwave her OldWW speed, and nobody has posted anything. I ALWAYS say things like "I haven't read the last several issues" or "that I am aware of."

No reason to get al attacky on me. If you've got a scan or even a page number, that'd be great. Also, I will confess that I'm leery on her using the bracelets to block stuff being equivalent to her having X speed, since the bracelets have the specific power to block stuff. Again, I'm not saying "there's no f-ing chance!" - I'm saying that her having magic bracelets with the specific power to block attacks kind of mitigates the "let's give her super speed because she used her bracelets to block attacks" thing. Doesn't it?

AFAIK, she's not run anywhere at superspeed, she doesn't have the "blur of motion as she does several things in one panel" feats, she's not helped Supes or Flash do stuff at obvious super speed.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post15579809

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...e-League/page4

Hell, you even quoted me on this one:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...Woman-vs-Namor

She also deflected the Omega Effect, which an issue earlier proved faster than Superman. She might have aim blocked that one though.

And no, I think I speak for all of us when I say we are pretty comfortable using her bracelets to deflect things as a speed feat. We always have. There has been no mention AFAIK of her having some that her bracelets have a "make my arms move faster enchantment." Hell, in the current continuity, that isn't even their primary function. They act as limiters for her powers-- without them, she goes all Super Saiyan.

[big_adventure]

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post15579809

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...e-League/page4

Hell, you even quoted me on this one:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...Woman-vs-Namor

She also deflected the Omega Effect, which an issue earlier proved faster than Superman. She might have aim blocked that one though.

And no, I think I speak for all of us when I say we are pretty comfortable using her bracelets to deflect things as a speed feat. We always have. There has been no mention AFAIK of her having some that her bracelets have a "make my arms move faster enchantment." Hell, in the current continuity, that isn't even their primary function. They act as limiters for her powers-- without them, she goes all Super Saiyan.

My quoting you was about the other part of your paragraph. But no big deal. At that time, I'd read JL, but not WW - I later did read it. I followed JL and WW up to issue 9, and I do not recall her ever deflecting one bullet, much less gatling gun fire. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I'd like to see the feat, or at least the issue and page number posted. You keep mentioning it, but you've yet to furnish the info.

[Surtur]

Hyperion does crazy squats.

He's probably one of those guys with the opposite of anorexia. He looks in the mirror everyday and see's a small man with small twig-like arms. He just can't help but keep working out. Hyperion has a utility belt, but it's chalk full of nothing but muscle milk powder(for emergencies).

[KavalSorcery]

It seems also his durability must be something in that he is the only person to have survived his universe's destruction. Also his power might appear to be stronger here while on earth in the 616 as he mentioned that he was able to even see the troposphere is thinner at the poles so he get's more sunlight.

Vision strong enough to see electrons moving around nuclei. It was also shown in the 3rd avengers issue when the team got together to fight ex nilho,abyss and aleph that Thor's lightning though it did strike them,did not stop them or even stun them as it is shown a forcefield was able to halt more lightning strikes. While Hyperion's heat vision did make ex nilho scream in pain and got him stunned and down on his knees.

Whether the fight with hulk was just to show a fight between the two for the purposes of a fight. I can see that hickman is using a brand new hyperion to give him a clean enough slate so that his powers can be undetermined till he fights enough at a high level.

[Captain Morgan]

No, you have NOT called me on this even once, much less 5 times.

I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I'd like to see the feat, or at least the issue and page number posted. You keep mentioning it, but you've yet to furnish the info.

So, I just want to take a moment to note here that the first statement contradicts the second. Were you lying, or just ignoring posts, or what? (I know, this is only the FOURTH time I can document calling big on this, but the search function sucks. Sue me.)

My quoting you was about the other part of your paragraph. But no big deal.

So, what, you don't bother reading things completely?

I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I'd like to see the feat, or at least the issue and page number posted. You keep mentioning it, but you've yet to furnish the info.

You never asked, or even acknowledged the feat. But here you go, since it took me all of 5 seconds to google it. JLA issue something or another. I am afraid my copy of those issues are not handy, but I am sure if you have them you can go back and pick it out.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0...4_013_copy.jpg

followed JL and WW up to issue 9, and I do not recall her ever deflecting one bullet, much less gatling gun fire

Then you clearly weren't paying attention to that either, since it took up an entire splash page where they even bother to go into the /model of the gun she is deflecting./

Yeah, I am making a big deal out of this. But this is how false board memes start. The fact that you have been called on it, /across four threads now,/ and have refused to even acknowledge that you have been, does not speak well of you.

[Mister Knight]

Hyperion survival could also have been that he got shunted to another dimension/empty void space at the destruction of the universes as we have seen with other characters before.

[Surtur]

Hyperion survival could also have been that he got shunted to another dimension/empty void space at the destruction of the universes as we have seen with other characters before.

I think that the universal energies were literally just terrified to go near his muscles.

[big_adventure]

So, I just want to take a moment to note here that the first statement contradicts the second. Were you lying, or just ignoring posts, or what? (I know, this is only the FOURTH time I can document calling big on this, but the search function sucks. Sue me.)

So, what, you don't bother reading things completely?

You never asked, or even acknowledged the feat. But here you go, since it took me all of 5 seconds to google it. JLA issue something or another. I am afraid my copy of those issues are not handy, but I am sure if you have them you can go back and pick it out.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0...4_013_copy.jpg

Then you clearly weren't paying attention to that either, since it took up an entire splash page where they even bother to go into the /model of the gun she is deflecting./

Yeah, I am making a big deal out of this. But this is how false board memes start. The fact that you have been called on it, /across four threads now,/ and have refused to even acknowledge that you have been, does not speak well of you.

Every single time I mentioned ANYTHING on the subject, I said "not that I am aware of" or "does anyone know if she has feats yet", etc.

How does that reflect badly on me? I have never said "I'm sure" or anything else.

About the M230 - since they bother to ID the weapon - it is NOT a gatling gun or any other type of multi-barrel weapon. It's a chain driven single-barrel machine gun. It "only" fires around 625rpm - cool and all, but nothing like a true modern multibarrel (which fire thousands of rounds per minute).

However, it's a chain-driven single-barrel 30 fucking MM machine gun. And it's one that, in combat loadout, only fires explosive rounds (unless they were, for some reason, shooting target rounds). I don't see the explosions here, or the inch-thick projectiles. I think we need to throw out their "definition" of the weapon.

It's still impressive. Does the one feat make her BT? Well, she's got nothing contradicting it, so I'm cool with that for now. Thanks for posting the image. I will stop saying that she's got nothing, until or unless that scan is counterbalanced. I still don't like taking her "blocking with magic bracelets" as pure speed, but I'll stip to that as well.

And if you think badly of me due to a board misunderstanding over something you never posted a scan on, well, that's your right, though I think that you are taking an awfully strong position against someone who couched their statements specifically in indefinite terms each time precisely because he was not certain. I assure you that I'll not lose any sleep over it. If you look at every thread where such discussions have come up, I've usually posted BECAUSE everyone else has said "WW speedblitz", forgetting that NuWW's speedblitz capabilities are nowhere near OldWW's.

Finally, for the battle against Carol - I'd STILL give it to Carol. Carol's got slower reaction time after this, but her travel speed (Carol is multimach there) should keep her out of Wondy's reach and Cap'n Carol has AoE energy blasts that Wondy can't really avoid. Carol, I think, is also still stronger and more durable - though again, I will accept any feats to the contrary.

[Nik Hasta]

I think that the universal energies were literally just terrified to go near his muscles.

Had to do it.