New Avengers #2 *Spoilers*

[Global Honored]

have we all graduated to referring to Dan and Andy as a single person now?

On this CBR Earth, it seems that the incursion has indeed occurred. Dan and Andy are now one, and the end is near....

[SanctumSanctorumComix]

One thing that I personally thought was awesome that I doubt other people will bring up is the Eye of Agamotto acting as a literal third eye for Dr. Strange.


That was a fantastic visual.

Doc having the Eye of Agamotto on his brow is an OLD visual - from back in the 1970's - 1980's (both in his own solo title as well as the Defenders v1).

He was seen with it in the recent Defenders v4 (Fraction's book) but that made no sense as by that time he no longer had access to the Eye (or at least not the "round" Eye - there are others).
The Eye on the forehead visual from Defenders v4 to me seemed just a warding/security spell.

THis in NEW AVENGERS is a return to the classic Eye of Agamotto (although there's still no explanation as to what the deal is with it, since...
A) it was supposedly destroyed along during Doctor Voodoo's battle with Agamotto
and
B) it may not even be able to function without the will of Agamotto (who is either "evil" or dead now)

I'll wait for Hickman to explain it.

And one more thing... PLEASE someone tell Steve Epting to draw Doctor Strange's cloak correctly.
It's killing me.


~P~

[Rheged]

I know this is an Avengers book and all, but if universes are dying shouldn't someone higher up on the cosmic power scale have noticed and actually done something about it? It seems kinda lazy to leave all the heavy lifting to Earth when their are universes that need saving.

The whole deal behind a Black Swan is no one sees it coming.

What cosmics are aware of the multiverses?

For a higher level cosmic power of our universe to notice, they'd have to notice the lifespan of the universe was getting unnaturally shorter -- and perhaps in an incremental amount of time so smalll, it wouldn't be noticeable.

Also, the cause has to be Earth centric, either in this universe or another.

Outside of Starlin written books, marvel cosmics do tend to be on the lazy side with this sort of stuff.

Still, it's possible Galacuts at least might show up representing his peeps.

I think the really cosmic beings are above noticing alot of the day to day, planetary or even galactic events.

I could buy the Pantheons not doing anything about it, maybe, considering how many of them spend all of their time just kickin' it in their pocket dimensions/realms.

But I guess it's true that the Tribunal at least should have noticed something.

Perhaps The Living Tribunal has. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him show up in New Avengers, given his mandate.

I don't really see the pantheons being multi-dimensional.

[EuphemismForSex]

The event that caused the premature destruction of the first universe/Earth was the Living Tribunal dying.

/spoilers.

THis in NEW AVENGERS is a return to the classic Eye of Agamotto (although there's still no explanation as to what the deal is with it, since...
A) it was supposedly destroyed along during Doctor Voodoo's battle with Agamotto
and
B) it may not even be able to function without the will of Agamotto (who is either "evil" or dead now)
I'll wait for Hickman to explain it.

The Ancient One re-hired him as Sorcerer Supreme and gave him the eye.

[jackolover]

Even when they were going to die anyway, and take trillions along with them?

The horror now is the feeling that the New Avengers will have to do a horrible thing, and once they've started, they'll have to keep doing it. There won't be any way out except to do it over and over again.

Does that mean the 616 takes precedence over the trillion people on another earth? By this I mean, does it come across as though the Illuminati are being very discriminatory in wanting to protect their dimension, over all others? And are the other dimensions expendable to the 616 Illuminati?

[Genki Sudo]

1) Peter is dead

And

2) Peter freaks out about what Punisher does so just imagine if he's told about this

I like Pete but this is way above his head, Cap is already getting at odds with everyone and HE'S the top boy scout

[SanctumSanctorumComix]

The Ancient One re-hired him as Sorcerer Supreme and gave him the eye.

Haha... yes. I know that, but... how can he give what no longer exists?

It was a Bendis continuity mess.

I'll wait for Hickman to iron it out.

[jackolover]

What I'm thinking is,

if saving one Earth can only have a localized and temporary effect - if a single Earth can be targeted by incursions repeatedly, if this cascade continues to propagate infinitely, along infinite vectors, through the multiverse, etc, - and if destroying a world to stop a convergence merely delays its progression through one part of that medium temporarily,

then the Illuminati, even if they've started destroying alternate Earths to stop convergences with their universe, might be forced to conclude that the Multiverse will be destroyed anyways, in little less time than it would have been otherwise. Since there's no way mortal action could catch up to a process that's happening on those infinite scales.

They can't even use the "We'll just keep killing every universe that threatens ours until there aren't any others left to threaten it" out, since the Marvel Multiverse is infinite. There would never not be more Earths they'd have to destroy, and eventually someone would miss one.
Or, even if they develop a process that can make a dent in that supposedly infinite expanse, the way the cascade itself does, it might just speed the process, contract the medium through which the convergence wave is propagating, lead to more and more universes converging faster and faster.
Basically, since the multiverse itself is infinite, and since it propagates infinitely with more and more universes being born all the time, then a process that threatens it can itself only be of a greater magnitude of infinity (some mathematical constructs allow for infinite quantities to be larger or smaller than each other). And there's not much anyone can do about that.

So there'd be a progression of:
The Team tries dealing with the cascade in a heroic way. This fails.
The Team throws out their compunctions and goes for the Whatever Means Necessary approach. Team then sees that this itself can't do anything less than fail, in the long game, which they would presumably have used as part of their justifications.
The Team must conclude that, no matter what they do, even throwing away everything dear to them and soforth, even going farther than they thought they could go, they can't stop the death of everything.

Which would be a most accurate meditation on mortality, when you think about it.

This all depends on the way the cascade/convergence mechanic actually works, but I think that'd be an interesting way to take it.
Although I don't think that's what Hickman will do, since it'd be a headache for subsequent writers and th' whole editorial office.

What is the importance of the multiverse, anyway? Isn't it just an abstract of possible different choices made in the 616, the real universe? If so, then all choices made about this issue are just eliminating choices of possible events. No biggy. Just do it. No moral dilemma to worry about, no?

What could just happen with this event is that all the possible alternate earths are eliminated from 616 possibilities, and we are left with a clean slate.

[jackolover]

Outside of Starlin written books, marvel cosmics do tend to be on the lazy side with this sort of stuff.

Still, it's possible Galacuts at least might show up representing his peeps.

Maybe this has something to do with the dead Galactus in the Fantastic Four arc Hickman just came from. It is a linked MU after all and all things going on in FF are also relevant to the Avengers and visa versa. See, I was dismissing that whole arc of the war of 4 cities altogether because it just didn't tie in to anything else going on in the MU at the time. I ignored it. But if this has something to do with that FF arc, then stuff is spilling over from what Reeds already done. Remember, Doom was left with an Infinity Gauntlet, somewhere in the multiverse.

[SanctumSanctorumComix]

What is the importance of the multiverse, anyway? Isn't it just an abstract of possible different choices made in the 616, the real universe? If so, then all choices made about this issue are just eliminating choices of possible events. No biggy. Just do it. No moral dilemma to worry about, no?

What could just happen with this event is that all the possible alternate earths are eliminated from 616 possibilities, and we are left with a clean slate.

Not really.

What you're describing is the "WHAT IF?" comic explanation of the multiverse - a never-ending series of alternate timelines (which made it easier for the Watcher to explain why he was showing certain worlds to us), when in fact the true multiverse is more of a String-Theory reality: unlimited universes all within multiple dimensional spaces, and each one bearing a potential for replication (or adaptation) of aspects of our own reality.

Some may be totally unique and not bearing any likeness to our own reality at all (fish walk on land, the sky is pink, trees are carnivorous, etc...) while others might have unlimted variations on us and our familar surroundings.
THis would be totally based upon the fact that its an UNLIMITED number of possibilities, and thus an UNLIMITED number of possible permutations of what COULD BE.
(An infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters)

So, to destroy ANY would be a very serious thing.
It's not like your throwing away discarded rough drafts of a story.
You're destroying a unique and separate reality.

[agent_graves]

Another great issue, begining to end, and the pg count was plus 3...

I understand why Steve is there, but I'm so happy he won't be for long...

I love the way Hickman is structuring the comic, while reading, it feels like I'm watching the Wire on HBO, with the recap being an actual pg from the previous issue, and how the title comes a few pgs in, with the little tageline, that can be found later on in the dialogue, really good stuff.

Hopefully, when all is said and done, Namor will, regret what he did in Wakanda...

[jackolover]

Not really.

What you're describing is the "WHAT IF?" comic explanation of the multiverse - a never-ending series of alternate timelines (which made it easier for the Watcher to explain why he was showing certain worlds to us), when in fact the true multiverse is more of a String-Theory reality: unlimited universes all within multiple dimensional spaces, and each one bearing a potential for replication (or adaptation) of aspects of our own reality.

Some may be totally unique and not bearing any likeness to our own reality at all (fish walk on land, the sky is pink, trees are carnivorous, etc...) while others might have unlimted variations on us and our familar surroundings.
THis would be totally based upon the fact that its an UNLIMITED number of possibilities, and thus an UNLIMITED number of possible permutations of what COULD BE.
(An infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters)

So, to destroy ANY would be a very serious thing.
It's not like your throwing away discarded rough drafts of a story.
You're destroying a unique and separate reality.

But all based on our 616 universe as you say. So, as they are just possibilities as you say, why is it so imperative that they exist? You say they are important, but I put it to you this way. Why is this reality/universe important to us in reality? Are we the intrinsic pattern that other universes follow, or is our reality/universe just a copy of something more intrinsic?

If the 616 MU is the important pattern, then the other universes are just disposable. If all the universes are intrinsic for the multiverse to exist, then that's a different story.

[chariset]

Hopefully, when all is said and done, Namor will, regret what he did in Wakanda...

I like the suggestion that some have floated in this thread that he does regret it and he's going to become somewhat self destructive as a result

[chariset]

double post

[Victor Freeman]

Does Cap's shield obstruct him frm engaging in close kombat? Same can b said 4 Gambit?

And given d premise wat guarantee dat d laws of fyzix regarding teleportation is not also affectd....but it is gd 2 c BP with teleportation capability given dat he orgins frm d "most scientifically advanced nation on earth" but dammit dem energy daggers r super-kool.

And of course d dagger mks him mo unique frm other clawy xcters like Wolverine, White Tiger, Bengal & Sabretooth in terms of hw dey fight & d arsenal d hv, use & alternate....d Avengers toon really md those daggers luk awesome in action. BP/Tchalla is a warrior not just a fighter & warriors tend 2 carry sum weapons.

They are to different characters. If he uses them great, if not great. Cap isn't a super genius king of the dead, with teleportation and invisiblity either. Hickman is doing great.