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  1. #166
    New Member taem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasm View Post
    I think what killed cosmic last time is a little more complicated than that.

    Marvel screwed up by releasing far too many cosmic titles (the mini's with each event) with the events because that probably pushed away many who might have tried just the event if they didn't feel like they had to also get the minis. And there were just too many events as well.

    Then they made the tactical error of having Nova sit on the sidelines for Conquest instead of giving him a bigger push with the event. Then they made the same error by sitting both of Nova and GOTG out of some of the next events. By the time they finally got brought back Nova and GOTG into the major events the books were in.
    Well obviously what they didn't work given sales figures, but I can see why they tried it this way. They tried to make the cosmic side a fleshed out context. With each event, they rolled out the major players who would inhabit this setting. I don't think it was a mistake to leave Nova out of Anni Conq, that put the focus on Guardians, the best thing to emerge from all this. Even what followed, I got a good appreciation for the Imperial Guard and the Inhumans.

    I think where they went wrong is using Vulcan and the X men world retreads. Retro continuity is never popular, it made the cosmic side seem like an appendage of x men, and Vulcan just was not compelling enough a villain after the likes of Annihilus.

    I do agree they should have slowed the pace and done more to foster enduring interest in the compelling figures they introduced. There was so much there! I would have picked up a limited series on Cole, Swad and that XXX chick they introduced in Thanos.

  2. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Thomas View Post
    He is writing All New X-Men like he is inspired. Maybe he was just burned out with the Avengers. He sounds enthusiastic about this book and has a plan. It should be good.

    Yeah, I am surprised just how much I dig ANXM. Inspired.. fitting word. If B writes Guardians like his latest Avengers title it'll flounder, but otherwise.. best of luck.

  3. #168
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    You should be fine.

    But it makes Andy Lanning sad when you call it that.

    SW
    Ah, you see? That's how little I know about Guardians of the Galaxy! Sorry if you ever see this, Mr. Lanning!

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasm View Post
    I think what killed cosmic last time is a little more complicated than that.

    Marvel screwed up by releasing far too many cosmic titles (the mini's with each event) with the events because that probably pushed away many who might have tried just the event if they didn't feel like they had to also get the minis. And there were just too many events as well.

    Then they made the tactical error of having Nova sit on the sidelines for Conquest instead of giving him a bigger push with the event. Then they made the same error by sitting both of Nova and GOTG out of some of the next events. By the time they finally got brought back Nova and GOTG into the major events the books were in danger.

    The final nail in the straw though I contend was the major expansion of $3.99 pricing and double shipping on Marvel's major books. That forced a lot of readers to drop fringe titles in order to keep up with the main titles so books that were already on the verge, like cosmic was after its mishandling, fell into cancellation range. It wasn't just the cosmic books that died during this time, you also saw Captain Britain and MI13, Agents of Atlas, Iron Fist, and several other fringe books get cancelled around the same time. Most readers clearly chose Spiderman, Avengers, X-men, etc multiple times a month at $3.99 rather at the expense of these other $2.99 titles once a month.

    The quality of the cosmic books never sank but its a lot like what sunk Crossgen (the original, not the Marvel rehash)- too much expansion, too fast rather than slowly building a solid audience with a few core books.
    All the books you mentioned were cancelled before they did $3.99 or double shipping. Some years before.
    Support titles that need supporting. Quit buying, reading and complaining about comics you don't enjoy.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasm View Post
    But a low selling book with critical praise can eventually start pulling in readers if you keep it simple by not stretching the already limited market for them too far. Instead Marvel quintupled down on the limited cosmic market with all the minis and events.
    Sure it can but whens the last time that really happened? Walking Dead. I really don't think those books were near Walking Dead quality or did they have a fraction of the critical praise Walking Dead did. Without them tying into the events they probably wouldn't have lasted as long as they did, critical praise or not.
    Support titles that need supporting. Quit buying, reading and complaining about comics you don't enjoy.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    Try all three first issues and just keep buying the ones you like.

    SW
    Did that with Slott's BND, and wish I had my nickelback. Speaking of Slott and Bendis, just one question about the new GotG, broken down into four parts:

    --Have you ever heard Ellis not call Slott, Bendis, or any other sentient creature "a knob?"

    --Saw a YouTube vid of Slott at a Comic Convention where he drew a stick people Galactus for a fan. Is Slott contractually obligated not to ever draw anything and does his ghosted writing and illustrating of "The Watchmen" still tick off the Bullpen?

    --How hard is it to keep Stan Lee from floating into the office, looking over shoulders, claiming "you didn't make that," and claiming he deserves all Batman royalties because he ghosted millionaire/playboy/vigilante "Zorro?"

    --All seriousness aside, would you put your best-selling writer on a project slated for a big Marvel franchise if Keith Giffen had not created the original chemistry for the core cast, and though DNA did an amazing bit of DNA on cosmic, Giffen gets a No-Prize that comes out of your sizable salary for letting Bendis secretly run (might be missing a vowel there) Marvel comix?

    Many thanks and best regards,

    Alan

  7. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Really?

    Most people are saying that he's killing it on All New X-men.

    Reading the book myself, I must say it's one of Marvel's best titles.
    How is it all new? He pulls a team of X-men from the past to the present which to me is lame writing and a feeble attempt at revising history which he seems to wipe his ass with at every opportunity he gets. What is the end game? A we going to have 2 Angel's, Iceman's, Cyclops's, Beast's and one Jean Grey from now on in continuity? Eventually they have to go back to the past they cant stay in present day since it would muddle everything up. Six issues in and the book is going nowhere, absolutely nowhere and the next six what then does this past version develop in a different way and if they do that just makes all my back issues of X-men a moot point (I have a complete collection Ha Ha) if the past version of original 5 don't turn into their present counterparts. If you like bad writing that's cool, Twilight is popular too. Don't tell me that using a time-travel plot hook is knocking it out of the park. It's not, don't be fooled by the hype train.
    Last edited by TheRicH; 01-25-2013 at 09:17 PM.

  8. #173
    FRENCH Frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasm View Post
    I think what killed cosmic last time is a little more complicated than that.

    Marvel screwed up by releasing far too many cosmic titles (the mini's with each event) with the events because that probably pushed away many who might have tried just the event if they didn't feel like they had to also get the minis. And there were just too many events as well.

    Then they made the tactical error of having Nova sit on the sidelines for Conquest instead of giving him a bigger push with the event. Then they made the same error by sitting both of Nova and GOTG out of some of the next events. By the time they finally got brought back Nova and GOTG into the major events the books were in danger.

    The final nail in the straw though I contend was the major expansion of $3.99 pricing and double shipping on Marvel's major books. That forced a lot of readers to drop fringe titles in order to keep up with the main titles so books that were already on the verge, like cosmic was after its mishandling, fell into cancellation range. It wasn't just the cosmic books that died during this time, you also saw Captain Britain and MI13, Agents of Atlas, Iron Fist, and several other fringe books get cancelled around the same time. Most readers clearly chose Spiderman, Avengers, X-men, etc multiple times a month at $3.99 rather at the expense of these other $2.99 titles once a month.

    The quality of the cosmic books never sank but its a lot like what sunk Crossgen (the original, not the Marvel rehash)- too much expansion, too fast rather than slowly building a solid audience with a few core books.
    Another thing is that maybe what Marvel was selling with these cosmic books did not appeal to people. From afar it felt more like Starship Trooper-style military in space type space operas, it wasn't the usual old school "Cosmic Kirby Marvel" that fans were used to. Last time before this that Marvel tackled "cosmic" it was The Infinity Gauntlet and it was pretty successful. I guess Kieth Giffen thought he was writing Legion of Super-Heroes or something. But this is Marvel.
    Legato - Frank, Calm Down Your Nerd Rage!

  9. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Another thing is that maybe what Marvel was selling with these cosmic books did not appeal to people. From afar it felt more like Starship Trooper-style military in space type space operas, it wasn't the usual old school "Cosmic Kirby Marvel" that fans were used to. Last time before this that Marvel tackled "cosmic" it was The Infinity Gauntlet and it was pretty successful. I guess Kieth Giffen thought he was writing Legion of Super-Heroes or something. But this is Marvel.
    It was a new take on things with the whole Annihilation, War of Kings and everything inbetween. Abnett shines at the whole Sci-Fi war type genre (Just pick up his Gaunts Ghosts novels for Warhammer 40K the stuff is EPIC and very well written) but with superpowered cosmic beings and it worked, very very very well. He and Andy got the characters and what made them tick and as a result some very good stories got told. The whole thing failed though in Marvel's marketing for it at the time they were pushing books done mostly by hacks i.e. Bendis, Slott, Fraction and neglected to give the Cosmic stuff the push that they needed. Sales were low and of course these leads to the current state go GOTG with a reboot and Movie coming so they put the one guy on it who by all intents and purposes tends to ruin good things and here we are with a GOTG team with Iron Man on it. If things had gotten as much pub as World War Hulk, Secret Invasion, Siege, Fear Itself, Schism, etc then the we might have a stronger GOTG presence and not have to reboot things again.

  10. #175
    Senior Member Trey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    Ah, you see? That's how little I know about Guardians of the Galaxy! Sorry if you ever see this, Mr. Lanning!
    Don't worry about it, he only wrote the Groot parts
    "Calm down, call Batman." - Greg Capullo

  11. #176
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRicH View Post
    How is it all new? He pulls a team of X-men from the past to the present which to me is lame writing and a feeble attempt at revising history which he seems to wipe his ass with at every opportunity he gets. What is the end game? A we going to have 2 Angel's, Iceman's, Cyclops's, Beast's and one Jean Grey from now on in continuity? Eventually they have to go back to the past they cant stay in present day since it would muddle everything up. Six issues in and the book is going nowhere, absolutely nowhere and the next six what then does this past version develop in a different way and if they do that just makes all my back issues of X-men a moot point (I have a complete collection Ha Ha) if the past version of original 5 don't turn into their present counterparts. If you like bad writing that's cool, Twilight is popular too. Don't tell me that using a time-travel plot hook is knocking it out of the park. It's not, don't be fooled by the hype train.
    Well, to each his own. It's perfectly understandable that you don't like the premise. I actually wasn't fond of it but considering the great work Bendis has done (and continues to do) I decided to try the book and like most other people have been impressed by how good the book is.

    It doesn't have anything to do with hype, its just a good book, pure and simple.

    We don't know the end game and that's exactly the reason why people are intrigued by it.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  12. #177
    Agent. CLASSIFIED. Superchino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Well, to each his own. It's perfectly understandable that you don't like the premise. I actually wasn't fond of it but considering the great work Bendis has done (and continues to do) I decided to try the book and like most other people have been impressed by how good the book is.

    It doesn't have anything to do with hype, its just a good book, pure and simple.

    We don't know the end game and that's exactly the reason why people are intrigued by it.
    I second this. Just relax, read, and enjoy...or don't read it. If we, as individuals, aren't enjoying our "entertainment," then it ceases to be so and we should find things that do entertain our particular tastes, interests, aspirations, and expectations. I think Bendis's X-book is a lot of fun and if it starts to unravel and falls apart I will just drop it and say, "Well it started strong and petered out. Too bad." I have done this with a few titles in the last six months. Regarding ANXM, for me, it is fun to see the good Jean again and the showdown between young and old Cyclops is intriguing. I also want to see how Bendis does with the timey-wimey stuff in the book over the long haul.

  13. #178
    disgruntled at best renne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superchino View Post
    If we, as individuals, aren't enjoying our "entertainment," then it ceases to be so and we should find things that do entertain our particular tastes, interests, aspirations, and expectations.
    Exactly. If you don't like it, drop it. If you change your mind again later, you change your mind. It's your money though, so. If you like buying books you hate then by all means keep at it.

  14. #179
    B.P.R.D Agent lex1126's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Smithee View Post
    Did that with Slott's BND, and wish I had my nickelback. Speaking of Slott and Bendis, just one question about the new GotG, broken down into four parts:

    --Have you ever heard Ellis not call Slott, Bendis, or any other sentient creature "a knob?"

    --Saw a YouTube vid of Slott at a Comic Convention where he drew a stick people Galactus for a fan. Is Slott contractually obligated not to ever draw anything and does his ghosted writing and illustrating of "The Watchmen" still tick off the Bullpen?

    --How hard is it to keep Stan Lee from floating into the office, looking over shoulders, claiming "you didn't make that," and claiming he deserves all Batman royalties because he ghosted millionaire/playboy/vigilante "Zorro?"

    --All seriousness aside, would you put your best-selling writer on a project slated for a big Marvel franchise if Keith Giffen had not created the original chemistry for the core cast, and though DNA did an amazing bit of DNA on cosmic, Giffen gets a No-Prize that comes out of your sizable salary for letting Bendis secretly run (might be missing a vowel there) Marvel comix?

    Many thanks and best regards,

    Alan
    *whips out popcorn*

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Smithee View Post
    Did that with Slott's BND, and wish I had my nickelback. Speaking of Slott and Bendis, just one question about the new GotG, broken down into four parts:

    --Have you ever heard Ellis not call Slott, Bendis, or any other sentient creature "a knob?"

    --Saw a YouTube vid of Slott at a Comic Convention where he drew a stick people Galactus for a fan. Is Slott contractually obligated not to ever draw anything and does his ghosted writing and illustrating of "The Watchmen" still tick off the Bullpen?

    --How hard is it to keep Stan Lee from floating into the office, looking over shoulders, claiming "you didn't make that," and claiming he deserves all Batman royalties because he ghosted millionaire/playboy/vigilante "Zorro?"

    --All seriousness aside, would you put your best-selling writer on a project slated for a big Marvel franchise if Keith Giffen had not created the original chemistry for the core cast, and though DNA did an amazing bit of DNA on cosmic, Giffen gets a No-Prize that comes out of your sizable salary for letting Bendis secretly run (might be missing a vowel there) Marvel comix?

    Many thanks and best regards,

    Alan
    I got the munchies reading this.

    SW

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