BATMAN #16 Review/Discussion/Spoilers

[Conway]

Haha haven't read them. Sounds interesting though, maybe I'll check them out, any good?

I'd recommend the last issue of RHatO, but that's because the writer told us that Jason is going to give Joker the worst beating of his life (with a crowbar), in this arc.

[thwhtGuardian]

Joker's not a reliable source.

Not only that, but to believe the Joker is giving us and Jason the straight dope is to assume the writers who came up with the ideas were terrible hacks.

[Nightfeather]

Red Robin was kidnapped but they never showed how exactly. It just skipped from him leaving to go help to being captured.

[Batman9]

Red Robin
Never liked Tim getting the shaft
But Damian is also a great Robin.

Can anyone come up with a source from Snyder saying that he wasn't going to kill anyone? I really, really, hope that he does. Give the arc some weight to it, so it wasn't all for naught

[Nightfeather]

Theories
It may seem like the Joker knows all about each character's personality but only enough that he could have picked up from years of dealing with them. When Red Robin demands the Joker to say his true name if he knows who he is, the Joker doesn't know. As others have already stated, from Alfred (Batman Inc.) to Barbara's mom (Commissioner Gordon), to Red Robin (Teen Titans) he doesn't seem to know their names. BUT how would he have known which stewardess Jason was sleeping with or to target multiple members of Haly's circus unless he knew about Dick and Jason? The Joker, or whoever this Joker is, knows at least some of their identities.

-Although the Joker is quoting Shakespeare like crazy (and Alfred loves the stage), I think it is unlikely this is some crazed Alfred. How then would the security footage show Alfred being taken by the Joker?

Can anyone come up with a source from Snyder saying that he wasn't going to kill anyone? I really, really, hope that he does. Give the arc some weight to it, so it wasn't all for naught

No source but some ideas with the platter.

-I think he is showing everyone the same platter. After showing it to Two-face and the Penguin, he said how it wouldn't sit well with them and it probably wouldn't with the Batbabies either. So he is showing the same one. Now it isn't any of the sidekicks or he wouldn't be showing it to all of them and we probably would have heard something about a series being cancelled. It probably isn't Alfred because if it was, why would Penguin and Two-face seemed shocked? Joker kill normal people all the time and they don't know the connection between Alfred and Batman. That is where I'm stuck. But he did say "play with their expectations" so it could be anything really.

[thwhtGuardian]

Red Robin
Never liked Tim getting the shaft
But Damian is also a great Robin.

Can anyone come up with a source from Snyder saying that he wasn't going to kill anyone? I really, really, hope that he does. Give the arc some weight to it, so it wasn't all for naught

I don't think Snyder has ever said he wasn't going to kill anyone, that would sort of kill the hype, but many believe it to be true because that's how these things normally work. Killing off high profile characters is hardly ever done.

[maxpower00044]

I don't think Snyder has ever said he wasn't going to kill anyone, that would sort of kill the hype, but many believe it to be true because that's how these things normally work. Killing off high profile characters is hardly ever done.

There was a time (it was probabaly a tweet that since has been erased), where Snyder said he was "off to the DC offices to get permission to maim a high profile character". I've tried so hard to find this, but it's not there anymore. And, I know it wasn't a dream, because then some people here have had the same dream.

[UnclePony]

Thanks for the spoilers.

Other than the horse deaths (animal abuse bothers the hell out of me) it was an intense issue.

Snyder's Joker is an excellent planner, but I can't remember the last time Joker was painted
as such a dangerous figure. I hope to see the Riddler taken to such a level.

I didn't read the Batgirl issue yet. Hm. Probably should have checked that out first

It is a drawing in a comic, friend. No actual animals were harmed. All is well!

[UnclePony]

Solid issue with amazing artwork from Capullo; always thought his work on Spawn was untouchable but he's proven that he can consistently outdo even himself.

I like the approach in making some of the villains more formidable -- like a previous poster said, however... Riddler being a master escape artist? Seems a little bit out of character and an unnecessary boost, but I suppose Riddler has been such a non-threat for so long that they have to do something of this ilk with him. Unlike many comics I read these days, I'm actually interested to see how this pans out and can't wait to grab the next issue. Suppose that means DC did their job, right? Also, it's almost comical how much better these issues were than some of those at the series' onset. (Flash inexplicably helping Batman toss Bane off a cliff ring a bell? "He'll be back.")

The whole point of the New 52 was to "reinvent" the DC Universe, so maybe Snyder is just changing things up a bit. Personally, I would like to see a new take on some of these characters. The Riddler is an awesome character, and one of my favorites, but he has been the exact same for so long that nobody seems to care about him anymore. I'm all for making him a "master escape artist". I think it would make him more threatening. The riddles are getting old and tired. I hope that Snyder has big plans for him with this next arc.

[UnclePony]

This guy doesn't like Capullo, let's get him!

Great issue, but I think Inc. outmatched it this month.

I think I have to agree with you on this one. Batman, Inc. has been fantastic. It is pretty exciting to see all of Morrison's little plot threads finally coming together. After so many years of reading his story it is about damn time!

[UnclePony]

I don't completely agree with everyone saying Snyder does stuff just to "shock" people. If he plans it from the start and throws in hints along the way, it really isn't just done for "shock value". I mean, yes, it may be a crazy turn of events, but just because it is nuts doesn't mean it is done with that in mind. He wants to change things up and that is something that Batman has needed for a long time. Give him some credit for doing something different. Alfred being Joker may be a little too out there for some, and I don't think that that is what is going on, but he said from the start that he was going for something crazy. I think he has done a pretty fantastic job so far and I would be really surprised if he did anything other than end this story on a good note. People get too worked up and expect "the greatest ending of all-time". Don't hype yourself into disappointment.

[mystmaven]

I reviewed the 2nd Death Of The Family on my site... http://goo.gl/oVZxJ and thought or hoped that the next issues of this series would be less gratuitous and more intelligent. But alas no, in this issue the Writer here got too, way too gruesome. Flies were all over the Joker and I felt the issue was way over cooked as it were. Your not likely to get my attention with torture... etc. That's just like playing with dead meat is all. Better to shoot a thing in the head and be done with it. So I decided I won't be reviewing this or the next one, which ends this. I haven't been paying all that much attention to Batman, the Nolan Movies were Pathetic! No passion, etc. So I'm not without my reasons. Too me Batman is far greater than these writers or 'movie of the 5th year directors'.

I did see Star Wars First.

Frank Miller appears to be the last one who even approached Batman's greatness.

[Conway]

People get too worked up and expect "the greatest ending of all-time". Don't hype yourself into disappointment.

Actually it's Snyder that hyped me up to disappointment. Between him, DC, and the critics I really was expecting something special. Oh and he's promised another "twist" ending that will shake up Batman's universe, so you shouldn't hype yourself up for a plain boring happy ending.

[The M.E.]

Gotta say I'm loving this arc and the discussion.

Has anyone suggested that Harley Quinn is in the plate? I read the first 20 pages of the thread and didn't see anyone say that.

I can't see the other villains being disgusted by Joker maiming anyone, except the one person no one thinks he'd kill. This would be a way for Joker to show Batman that he, too, is better off without a "family", and that since Joker's willing to kill his, Bats should be ready to kill all of his as well. Didn't Joker say Batman would be the one to kill them all?

Just a guess. I can see why some might think Joker's really Alfred (it would explain knowing the identities), but I think it would've been a massive let down. As a newbie to the Bat-world of comics, but a longtime Batman fan, this arc has felt so epic and amazing, and having it not really be Joker would be massively disappointing.

[adkal]

That's just it - what if it isn't something 'disgusting' (by that I mean a severed body part or something along those lines). What if it's something ridiculous?

Totally contrary to what Snyder's been putting forward in the arc, sure, but it could still work...