BATMAN #16 Review/Discussion/Spoilers

[Goldgeller]

What you just described is exactly why I don't think there will be a new Joker or the real Joker will die. The problem with that concept is that it will simply never, ever be as good as the original. The only reason to get rid of as storied a character as the Joker is because you have a better concept in mind to take his place. If you just replace him with a weaker stand-in, the entire Batman franchise diminishes. There is not a single writer in the Batman stable that could create a villain as cool as the Joker, by simple virtue of the character's 60+ years of development. Obviously the only way they could do it would be to bring back the original, but as has been said we still don't have any clues on how Joker would fix his face.

All I can say is "we'll see." I think my prediction matches up with the leatherface style mask. And besides, they've already technically created a newJoker and erased Joker's history with Batman. This is a brand new super prep-time Joker. And I think he'll die and you'll just get a bunch of crazy people wearing the mask, which will have the power of crazy in it, cause it soaked up all of Joker's blood. I'm sure it will be a bodiless death, so we can get a Return of the Joker arc later, but that's what will happen.

My big question is this-- what's on the platter? It's either going to be incredibly stupid or it's going to super disgusting-- which leads into the next post...

I never thought I say that, being a liberal person. But really? Sewn together people? Cut off faces? That isn't entertainment, that is SICK. And no, NOT in the cool way.
I don't know what is more sick, authors creating such a SICK "fantasy" or readers enjoying that.

Such things really make me hate the human race. As if there isn't enough pain and suffering in the real world they actually pay for "entertainment" depicting things right of out Nazi Concentration Camps. Sick. Just sick.

Doesn't ANYONE ever REFLECT what we are here presented with as so called "entertainment"? Are we all so primitive that we consume that like any normal story already? *shakes head*

No. Just no. Such things must be forbidden. Period. Paragraph. End of story.

I'm not a first amendment absolutist, but I'm uneasy about forbidding a lot of stuff as well, at least if you're talking about the government doing so.

I must admit, I thought some of the stuff going on with the Joker and the tie-ins was simultaneously too over the top and while scraping the bottom of the barrel full of monkeys that Snyder wants to make this arc crazier than (how about that for mixed metaphors?!). The Joker "face mask" thing is pretty disturbing, some of the portrayals of violence, were very uncompromising for a Batman book (which I think is probably PG-13 at best, but that's just me, this arc is R) and the sewn together boddies thing was also pushing into bad taste territory. I think the issue before last, in Batman and Robin where Joker has Robin trapped in a room of worms or something weird like that-- that was disgusting as well.

I think there are two points-- perhaps Snyder wants us to be revolted by the Joker? Maybe that's his point. Joker is disturbing individual and you should not want to come near him; you should not have any type of impression that he's cool, or witty or humorous or in any way redeeming-- maybe that's his point? I don't know. I think it is interesting that reading comics allows us to become strangely familiar and habituated to certain villains and maybe Snyder's point is that we shouldn't do that. This would be something interesting.

The second point, is that perhaps Snyder is trying to deal with the issue of portraying Joker as a really crazy villain in a time where the bar for really crazy has been raised (or lowered) depending on how you look at it. Maybe this is Scott Snyder simply trying to be edgy and "out do" the other villains and other writers. "Your character is a villain because he shot someone? My character is a villain cause tortures people and kills them! Checkmate!" It's basically a race to the bottom. And that may have something to do with the fact that many people, including kids have become jaded by violence in entertainment. I'm not saying anything about whether media causes crime. So let's not get defensive. I'm just saying that large numbers of people have become habituated to seeing acts of violence that would've been disturbing a decade ago. In that sense, I think Snyder's Joker is a product of it's time. This is just what passes for edgy today. I can't re-write Death of the Family to make it more "artistic" in its portrayal of a Joker-- Snyder's the one with the chops and the imagination. But these are two fair theories.

[adkal]

All I can say is "we'll see." I think my prediction matches up with the leatherface style mask. And besides, they've already technically created a newJoker and erased Joker's history with Batman. This is a brand new super prep-time Joker. And I think he'll die and you'll just get a bunch of crazy people wearing the mask, which will have the power of crazy in it, cause it soaked up all of Joker's blood. I'm sure it will be a bodiless death, so we can get a Return of the Joker arc later, but that's what will happen.

Like the Joker Virus in DC One Million and Batman Beyond?

[Mr. Holmes]

[MykeHavoc]

I feel the time for a faux Joker story is a bit late. It would've been more appropriate during Dick's time under the cowl, to reinforce on both sides that Batman is a symbol and larger than the man. If done correctly, the twisted "broken mirror" Joker equivalency to that would be someone else wearing his face, figuratively or literally. I like Scott and I'm hoping he has something special planned, regardless of it's direction. So long as their is legitimate weight involved and a lack of cop-outs, I would consider that a successful arc IMO.

[DrSimonHurt]

I never thought I say that, being a liberal person. But really? Sewn together people? Cut off faces? That isn't entertainment, that is SICK. And no, NOT in the cool way.
I don't know what is more sick, authors creating such a SICK "fantasy" or readers enjoying that.

Such things really make me hate the human race. As if there isn't enough pain and suffering in the real world they actually pay for "entertainment" depicting things right of out Nazi Concentration Camps. Sick. Just sick.

Doesn't ANYONE ever REFLECT what we are here presented with as so called "entertainment"? Are we all so primitive that we consume that like any normal story already? *shakes head*



No. Just no. Such things must be forbidden. Period. Paragraph. End of story.

And myself, being a liberal person, completely opposes the censorship of ANY creative medium in ANY form. Period. End of story.

Being Liberal does not free you from being offended. You're making a very socially conservative statement with all of this.

On top of that, it is still the bad guy doing it. They aren't saying it's a good thing, they're saying its screwed up and Batman is here to clean house. The good guy will win, see?

If you want to be honestly offended, regardless of your political stance, go look at Rob Liefeld's art. Or just check out Crossed.

[Nite-Wing]

How can you say Joker cutting off his face is too gratuitous when you have characters like two face as a very prominent villain has half his face cooked like bacon.
its impossible for anyone to say they enjoy the violent acts the joker commits. You watch a horror movie because you want to be scared not because you enjoy seeing people get killed.
I think horror comics are of the same leaf imo

[Goldgeller]

Like the Joker Virus in DC One Million and Batman Beyond?

Sorry... Never read 1 Million and the most time I spent with Batman Beyond was the TV series... I remember the Joker came back a few times and the effect was mixed, and my memory is hazy on that. But it always depends on the writer.

[adkal]

How can you say Joker cutting off his face is too gratuitous when you have characters like two face as a very prominent villain has half his face cooked like bacon.
its impossible for any normal person to say they enjoy the violent acts the joker commits. You watch a horror movie because you want to be scared not because you enjoy seeing people get killed.
I think horror comics are of the same leaf imo

Amended that for you...

[Coal Tiger]

I never thought I say that, being a liberal person. But really? Sewn together people? Cut off faces? That isn't entertainment, that is SICK. And no, NOT in the cool way.
I don't know what is more sick, authors creating such a SICK "fantasy" or readers enjoying that.

Such things really make me hate the human race. As if there isn't enough pain and suffering in the real world they actually pay for "entertainment" depicting things right of out Nazi Concentration Camps. Sick. Just sick.

Doesn't ANYONE ever REFLECT what we are here presented with as so called "entertainment"? Are we all so primitive that we consume that like any normal story already? *shakes head*



No. Just no. Such things must be forbidden. Period. Paragraph. End of story.

Pssst... It's not real.

[tiptupjr94]

Most of my problems with this arc is that most of the supposedly gruesome and terrifying stuff isn't gruesome at all, it's just stupid. A bunch of bodies stitched together? So edgy! Just kidding, yawn. This arc has officially made me never buy a Snyder comic again. And it's a shame, because Court of Owls was pretty decent. The Night of the Owls crossover itself was executed well, the tie-ins made sense together and were actually FUN TO READ. Here it is literally impossible to make the tie-ins and main title form a coherent continuity. And yes, that's Snyder's fault.

Oh, and another thing. Greg Capullo. His art is good, don't get me wrong, but I am SO SICK of every single person on the Internet worshipping this guy. There are other good comic book artists out there, little known fact. Personally I've been enjoying Jock's art in these backups and hope we see more of him.

[The Duke]

It's nice to know I'm not a lone voice on this issue being particularly repugnant.

[Captain Jim]

Ok, it's his opinion. But it's such a ridiculous one that it makes me question his merits and the merits of this site. There's plenty of sites out there, why should I keep going to CBR

Nobody's forcing you to hang around here.

I've been reading Batman for 20+ years and IMO Snyder is pretty mediocre.

So what does that prove? I've been reading Batman for 50+ years and I love Snyder's work. Like the man said, it's all a matter of OPINION.

Conversely, why don't you stop reading/buying a title you don't like?

[Batman9]

This thread has just got Jim'd

@Slowens- Seriously, if you don't like a comic, don't read it! Nobody is pointing a gun at your head and telling you to buy it (or are they?)! It's all opinion, and like the saying goes, one mans trash is another mans treasure. I think you have to recognize that you are in the minority, because lets face it, the book sells. Not that you are wrong, by any means, just that you have different tastes.

The reason Batman sells more than indie comics is that Batman is an incredibly popular character. The movies have grossed almost 3 billion dollars, and that's just Nolan's movies. An indie comic will never outsell a mainstream comic, because if it did sell huge, one of the big two would snap it up, and it wouldn't be an indie comic anymore.

[booyah]

The reason Batman sells more than indie comics is that Batman is an incredibly popular character. The movies have grossed almost 3 billion dollars, and that's just Nolan's movies. An indie comic will never outsell a mainstream comic, because if it did sell huge, one of the big two would snap it up, and it wouldn't be an indie comic anymore.

Well actually you should look at international comics markets before you make that claim.

[weeks]

The reason Batman sells more than indie comics is that Batman is an incredibly popular character. The movies have grossed almost 3 billion dollars, and that's just Nolan's movies. An indie comic will never outsell a mainstream comic, because if it did sell huge, one of the big two would snap it up, and it wouldn't be an indie comic anymore.

the number one selling comic book of 2012 was an indie book.