40th Anniversary of Gwen Stacy's death

[Kevinroc]

Tragic origins aside(which are a different beast altogether), none of those events were as shocking as DoGS as it wiped out the superhero's love interest and arch-nemesis in one fell swoop. It is this Hamletian aspect of the story which makes it so rich in pathos and groundbreaking for comics at the time. George Stacy's death was dwarfed by Gwen's as the latter's death actually negated the shock of the first's. George's dying words to Peter were to take care of Gwen, so subconsciously or consciously, comic book readers probably considered Gwen as "safe" and there for the long run, as that was how comic book story mechanics were expected to work then. Norman too was probably assumed to be the cliched recurring arch villain of the series. So 121 and 122 really shattered all of those assumptions and expectations and turned the whole world of superhero comics upside down.

And I thought Peter + MJ was the unsung legacy of the story. Gerry Conway has actually come out and said that bringing Peter and MJ together is his greatest contribution at Marvel, over the creation of the Punisher even. Anyways, I don't think people connect Castle to this tale all that much because he could have been introduced even if some other minor or new character related to Spider-Man had been offed or injured in place of Gwen. Still, it is one of the many, many, many ripple effects of this story.

Long standing supporting characters tended not to die at that point in comics, with the exception of George. Characters like Franklin Storm or Wonder Man were only around for an issue or two before biting it. George was really the first long standing supporting character to bite it. (The reason Gwen's death overshadows his is because she was a more prominent character than him in the title.)

But Banner's exposure as the Hulk definitely must have been a shocker. Up until that point, super heroes did not get their identities exposed. (I bet you forgot the Hulk actually had a secret identity at one point. )

[Confuzzled Mutie]

Long standing supporting characters tended not to die at that point in comics, with the exception of George. Characters like Franklin Storm or Wonder Man were only around for an issue or two before biting it. George was really the first long standing supporting character to bite it. (The reason Gwen's death overshadows his is because she was a more prominent character than him in the title.)

But Banner's exposure as the Hulk definitely must have been a shocker. Up until that point, super heroes did not get their identities exposed. (I bet you forgot the Hulk actually had a secret identity at one point. )

Not exactly a die-hard Silver Age Hulk junkie. Still, I think we can say that "death of beloved" trumps "secret identity exposed" even in superhero comics. After all, the whole point of keeping your identity secret is to ensure that your loved ones aren't harmed. So in a way, the worst case scenario hit Peter first even though it was Banner who was most vulnerable.

As for George, I really have no idea whether his death was ever considered as truly shocking. He was just a secondary/tertiary character and not the first father figure or the relative of a love interest to die in ASM (Betty's bro was killed in #11, right?), so his death was still within the boundaries of the status quo. However, Gwen's death, with Norman following in the very next issue, totaled the status quo completely.

[Kevinroc]

Not exactly a die-hard Silver Age Hulk junkie. Still, I think we can say that "death of beloved" trumps "secret identity exposed" even in superhero comics. After all, the whole point of keeping your identity secret is to ensure that your loved ones aren't harmed. So in a way, the worst case scenario hit Peter first even though it was Banner who was most vulnerable.

As for George, I really have no idea whether his death was ever considered as truly shocking. He was just a secondary/tertiary character and not the first father figure or the relative of a love interest to die in ASM (Betty's bro was killed in #11, right?), so his death was still within the boundaries of the status quo. However, Gwen's death, with Norman following in the very next issue, totaled the status quo completely.

I don't think you can look at it like that without knowing just how major a change it was to the Hulk's entire dynamic after his identity was exposed. He used to go to the military base for work and then tried to stay out of sight at night when he transformed. (Silver Age Hulk was very Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.)

But once his identity was exposed, that was it. Game over. He couldn't hide. The entire dynamic of the series was changed dramatically.

As for how shocking George's death was... I couldn't say. All I know is Dan Slott said that he cried when he first read the story where George died. (That might explain why George's "ghost" occasionally pops up in his run. It left a big impact on him when he was a kid.)

[Confuzzled Mutie]

I don't think you can look at it like that without knowing just how major a change it was to the Hulk's entire dynamic after his identity was exposed. He used to go to the military base for work and then tried to stay out of sight at night when he transformed. (Silver Age Hulk was very Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.)

But once his identity was exposed, that was it. Game over. He couldn't hide. The entire dynamic of the series was changed dramatically.

For that book in particular, yes, the status quo had changed. But DoGS(I am enjoying this acronym!) changed the status quo for all of comics! Anyone was game for death after that, except maybe the protagonists themselves.

As for how shocking George's death was... I couldn't say. All I know is Dan Slott said that he cried when he first read the story where George died. (That might explain why George's "ghost" occasionally pops up in his run. It left a big impact on him when he was a kid.)

Marvel was going about it all wrong when they were thinking of reviving Gwen for BND. It should have been George who should have been seriously considered. Think about it. Chief of NY Police who Peter couldn't even face, much less interact and work with, because he thought he failed him by not being able to protect Captain Stacy's daughter. Irrespective of whether George knew of Peter's secret or not. And Spider-Man still being forced to come by him everyday during the course of his daily heroics. There was great potential for good drama there. Missed opportunity. I secretly hoped that Sony wouldn't drop the ball as well by killing off George before Gwen in the movies, but no luck there either.

[Kevinroc]

For that book in particular, yes, the status quo had changed. But DoGS(I am enjoying this acronym!) changed the status quo for all of comics! Anyone was game for death after that, except maybe the protagonists themselves.

Banner's exposure was a bigger shift for the Hulk then Gwen's death was for Spidey. And it was the foundation for that whole 1970s TV series that impacted how the general public viewed ol' greenskin and all the influence that show had. Don't argue with me on this. Just know that I'm right.

Marvel was going about it all wrong when they were thinking of reviving Gwen for BND. It should have been George who should have been seriously considered. Think about it. Chief of NY Police who Peter couldn't even face, much less interact and work with, because he thought he failed him by not being able to protect Captain Stacy's daughter. Irrespective of whether George knew of Peter's secret or not. And Spider-Man still being forced to come by him everyday during the course of his daily heroics. There was great potential for good drama there. Missed opportunity. I secretly hoped that Sony wouldn't drop the ball as well by killing off George before Gwen in the movies, but no luck there either.

Captain Stacy always dies. Even in continuities where Gwen sort of lives (like Ultimate), Captain Stacy dies. Usually so there can be conflict between Peter/Gwen/Spider-Man. (And then the new movies had to screw that whole dynamic up.)

[Confuzzled Mutie]

Banner's exposure was a bigger shift for the Hulk then Gwen's death was for Spidey. And it was the foundation for that whole 1970s TV series that impacted how the general public viewed ol' greenskin and all the influence that show had. Don't argue with me on this. Just know that I'm right.

Heh. Okay.

Captain Stacy always dies. Even in continuities where Gwen sort of lives (like Ultimate), Captain Stacy dies. Usually so there can be conflict between Peter/Gwen/Spider-Man. (And then the new movies had to screw that whole dynamic up.)

I get what purpose it plays in the Ultimate universe, but the movies were better off without his death. And Gwen usually tends to become insufferable and loses all of her redeeming qualities whenever he dies. It is so painful to watch that I can't ever bear the interval between Death of Captain Stacy and ASM #121. And the movie ending was terrible too, even though Emma Stone can salvage even the messiest of plot points with her immense skills.

If it were up to me, I would have let George survive and be heartbroken after Gwen's death. But then maybe he begins to dote on Mary Jane as a daughter because she reminds him of Gwen, especially after he sees how well she treats and understands Peter. And MJ on her part is more than delighted to be there for her late best friend's dad, because that's just the kind of sweet person she is. And also because George would be the strong father figure that she personally never had before.

[David Walton]

I don't know that Banner's exposed identity was a bigger shift at the time. Just going by memory, those early Hulk stories are all over the place, so it's hard to really pin down a status quo. Not sure the Hulk had much of one until the Savage-Hulk-known-to-be-Banner- hunted-by-the-army-in-the-desert-days.

Whereas Spider-Man had an established status quo at the time, and among other things it involved Gwen always finding her way back to him.

[Kevinroc]

I don't know that Banner's exposed identity was a bigger shift at the time. Just going by memory, those early Hulk stories are all over the place, so it's hard to really pin down a status quo. Not sure the Hulk had much of one until the Savage-Hulk-known-to-be-Banner- hunted-by-the-army-in-the-desert-days.

Whereas Spider-Man had an established status quo at the time, and among other things it involved Gwen always finding her way back to him.

If there was one thing constant about Hulk's status quo, it's that it was constantly changing. Hulk is gray, now he's green. Hulk comes out at night, now he comes out when Banner is emotionally compromised. Hulk's a founding Avenger, he's off the team in the very next issue. Hulk is a hero in a microscopic universe, now his tiny alien love is dead.

I actually think Waid's current arc is probably the closest we've seen to that original status quo of Banner going into work and then Hulking out to take care of the villain of the story. (But we aren't seeing him play off of General Ross and Betty because they're Hulks now too.)

I do think the "Bruce Banner on the run" is so famous as the Hulk's status quo that it tends to overshadow the stuff that came before. (Kind of like how Gwen's death overshadows her relationship with Peter.)

That "Gwen always finds her way back to Peter" thing was a major reason why they ended up killing her. Because it made the title appear static and very safe.

[David Walton]

If there was one thing constant about Hulk's status quo, it's that it was constantly changing. Hulk is gray, now he's green. Hulk comes out at night, now he comes out when Banner is emotionally compromised. Hulk's a founding Avenger, he's off the team in the very next issue. Hulk is a hero in a microscopic universe, now his tiny alien love is dead.

I actually think Waid's current arc is probably the closest we've seen to that original status quo of Banner going into work and then Hulking out to take care of the villain of the story. (But we aren't seeing him play off of General Ross and Betty because they're Hulks now too.)

I do think the "Bruce Banner on the run" is so famous as the Hulk's status quo that it tends to overshadow the stuff that came before. (Kind of like how Gwen's death overshadows her relationship with Peter.)

That "Gwen always finds her way back to Peter" thing was a major reason why they ended up killing her. Because it made the title appear static and very safe.

All very good points! When I was a kid, I assumed Hulk had always been savage, green, and on the run. When Joe Fixit showed up in an issue of WOS it blew my mind! I didn't even know that he'd been grey in his first appearance and exhibited similar traits.

[FOOM]

At first, being a kid and all, I was sad with Gwen's death, but accepted it. I didn't really think about writers, to me stories just kind of "happened". The Green Goblin went to become my favorite villain.

But then, I grew up, thought about writers, saw a metric ton of characters returning from the dead and became somewhat bitter. Then, the marriage happened, and current fans were like "lol, of course Mary Jane is better than Gwen", so I became a little more bitter. Then, I discovered that fans did not want Gwen returning and were saying that she didn't ever made anything good but dying, and that got me a little more bitter. Then, the straw that broke the camel's back was Norman Osborn returning from the grave. But Marvel is never happy with just breaking the camel's back, they decided that they wanted to smash it under the weight and made "Sins Past" happen.

Can’t believe how well this part of your post sums up my thoughts. Well said.

[FOOM]

There are several reasons that make Sins Past my least favourite story Marvel has ever told. The main reason is because of how Out Of Character Gwen was written in this rubbish. Certainly not all, but I’d think most everyone who knew the Gwen Stacy character would agree with this, and this is why this story has become one of the most Hated & Controversial storylines in Spidey’s history.

So the story tells us that Gwen was a virgin. Umm ok , probably Not what most people would have thought because back in those days “Make Love Not War” was quite in vogue, They were in collage, Pete is our hero & Gwen was Hot. Come on; They had to have been Doing It. LOL But for the most part, comics didn’t show or even imply that stuff back then and I suppose it’s very plausible that Gwen was a purity ring kind of girl saving herself for marriage. Umm ok But almost in the same breath the story then tells us that on a whim she slept with Norman.?!?.

Sins past started out pretty cool and had real potential, but then it just ruined it for me because of what I thought it did to the Gwen Character and Spidey cannon.

[FOOM]

Gwen Stacy – One Fans Opinion

First off, I’m not one of the Gwen Fans that would classify her as a full time saint. We’ve seen her Bitch Slap more than one person, usually defending Pete, but also including Pete once. She could be Sweet and Caring, Spunky & Feisty, Mischievous, Cold, interesting, Playful, Bitchy; She had many personality traits. Yes, Gwen wined and cried from time to time in the late 60s early 70s, but that’s the way women were commonly portrayed back then. Some may say that she was starting to be written as a weaker character during this time but it could also be argued that she was head over heels in Love with Pete, and Love sometimes makes you “weak at the knees”. It was a Different Time and comics weren’t as Complex as Today, so it’s not fair to compare the way MJ has developed over the last 40+ years to the way Gwen had developed over her 7-8 years.

Also, people only seem to remember MJ as the quintessential Party chick back in the day, but as some may recall, while it was MJ that was willing to attend any party that came her way, it was Gwen who was actually throwing most of those parties. (Flash was accepted into the Army; Party at my place. It’s my Birthday; Party at my place. Flash leaves for the war, I’m getting everyone together at the Coffee Bean. - ect.)

In my Opinion I think most of the people who didn’t like the character or thought she was boring or underdeveloped, probably didn’t grow up reading those books back in the day. Most of the people I know that think this way have read a few books with her in them here and there but didn’t read these books from the beginning in continuity to develop the same bond with her as Peter and the readers did. We were pulling for Gwen to notice Pete for the great guy he was when she was too busy running with the cool crowd. We were pulling for Pete to “get a clue” and notice when she started liking him. We were pulling for them to get together and when they finally did, we pulled for them to make it work when everything seemed to always stack against them.

Although she died 40 years ago, the character of Gwen Stacey still resonates Today with story mentions, miniseries, Movie appearances, Fan speak, ect. If this were a boring, unworthy, underdeveloped character I don’t believe this would be the case.

Gwen was Pete’s first Great Love, his Greatest responsibility, his Greatest failure, and other than Uncle Ben, his Greatest loss. It hit Pete hard and those of us who Loved Spidey and followed his exploits every month were hit hard as well.

Even though I Painfully Hated seeing her die, I had to admit, Amazing Spider-Man 121 and 122 is one of the Best stories not only in Spider-Man but in Marveldom, as well as one of the most important. If someone went to Wiki to research Spiderman, along with a wealth of other information they would see a section about “The Death Of Gwen Stacy”.

When you buy high priced comics at your LCS or a Convention there are things you need to take the comic out of the bag and check for. If it’s an old Silver or Golden Age book with Tanning or Browning you need to make sure the pages aren’t Brittle. If it’s a Marvel from the 25-35 cent cover price era, you need to check and make sure the Marvel Value Stamp isn’t cut out of it. If it’s a Spidey 121 or 122 you have to make sure there is no small spots of Water Damage due to the tear drops hitting the pages.
JMO – FOOM