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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probably_not_a_Nurgling View Post
    I've found it strange for a while now that the story that gave us 'fridging is so highly-regarded and seen as groundbreaking even today. Nobody actually likes that trend, do they?
    I see two main reasons why "Death of Gwen Stacy" is usually not viewed in the vein of typical 'fridging stories which followed it/inspired by its success-

    1.) The main reason Gerry Conway chose Gwen Stacy to be the casualty in the story was not to introduce more turmoil to Peter Parker's life but so that he could promote Mary Jane Watson as the female lead of the series and flesh out her character some more. Primarily because he thought Mary Jane was the most interesting female character in comics at the time as she better reflected the changing attitudes towards women in the 60s/70s. "Women in Refrigerators" instances are hated upon because they are accused of using supporting female character's tragedies as mere plot device to further the character arcs of only male characters. It wasn't the case here. Mary Jane has a small participation in the story, but her very presence and implications of her behavior in ASM #122 separates DoGS from the rest of the fridging pack. A fan who wrote in to CBR during their "50 Greatest Spider-Man Stories" listing last year described this aspect of "Death of Gwen Stacy" incredibly well. You can read her comments on the following page, in the section for "Death of Gwen Stacy"-

    http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...n-stories-5-1/

    2.) The second reason is because the story is just so damn good. The tragedy is almost Shakespearean in impact and the build-up and pacing is immaculate. Other WiR stories are just exploitative for the sake of being provocative. "Death of Gwen Stacy" is probably the greatest story ever to be told in just two issues. It truly deserves all the accolades it receives.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    "Death of Gwen Stacy" is probably the greatest story ever to be told in just two issues. It truly deserves all the accolades it receives.
    "Whatever Happened To the Man of Tomorrow" says "hi."
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    "Whatever Happened To the Man of Tomorrow" says "hi."
    I think "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" beats "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" by a long shot but that's just my opinion.

    Unlike WHttMoT, TNGSD had real huge ramifications for the character that altered him FOREVER.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile Kangaroo View Post
    I think "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" beats "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" by a long shot but that's just my opinion.

    Unlike WHttMoT, TNGSD had real huge ramifications for the character that altered him FOREVER.
    Debatable since WHttMoT was the farewell to the Silver Age Superman.

    And for pure story, it's hard to top Alan Moore.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  5. #50

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    It's the greatest death of the world's most boring character.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    "Whatever Happened To the Man of Tomorrow" says "hi."
    Naah. I prefer DoGS. It completely broke the Silver Age. WHTTMoT was a solid Moore Story, but it hardly destroyed the landscape of superhero comics as Death of Gwen Stacy did back in the day.

    ..not that I was there but it is incredibly obvious how impacting the story has been on the broader superhero comics community till this day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madame_Scarlet View Post
    It's the greatest death of the world's most boring character.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    Naah. I prefer DoGS. It completely broke the Silver Age. WHTTMoT was a solid Moore Story, but it hardly destroyed the landscape of superhero comics as Death of Gwen Stacy did back in the day.

    ..not that I was there but it is incredibly obvious how impacting the story has been on the broader superhero comics community till this day.
    Well, can't really argue with "prefer." Although we all know Moore made an even bigger impact on the super hero genre than even TNGSD. It just wasn't with WHttMoT. (And it wasn't a two-parter.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Well, can't really argue with "prefer." Although we all know Moore made an even bigger impact on the super hero genre than even TNGSD. It just wasn't with WHttMoT. (And it wasn't a two-parter.)
    Watchmen is seminal, yes. But DoGS (121 and 122), along with the Harry Osborn drug addiction plotline, broke superhero conventions to a great extent and made the ground fertile for Moore and Miller's works on the genre, which would come more than a decade later.

    DoGS was the first time folks realized that there were real stakes involved in the life of a superhero. Which was why it was so shocking and unexpected. The fact that Conway was only 19 or 20 when he penned the tale just boggles my mind.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    Watchmen is seminal, yes. But DoGS (121 and 122), along with the Harry Osborn drug addiction plotline, broke superhero conventions to a great extent and made the ground fertile for Moore and Miller's works on the genre, which would come more than a decade later.

    DoGS was the first time folks realized that there were real stakes involved in the life of a superhero. Which was why it was so shocking and unexpected. The fact that Conway was only 19 or 20 when he penned the tale just boggles my mind.
    It's a bit more complicated than that. In so far as terrible things had happened in super hero comics well before Gwen's death (And not even as part of the origin like Uncle Ben or Batman's parents).

    Sticking with Spidey for one example, there was the death of Captain Stacy.

    Expanding to the rest of the Marvel Universe, Sue and Johnny's father had already died (Sue named her first born after her father).

    Wonder Man had already died (he just came back to life later. And then died again later. And then came back to life again later.)

    Bruce Banner was a man on the run as his entire life had been ruined by his powers. (Talk about breaking the conventions of super hero storytelling. This man was a wanted fugitive because he, nominally speaking, was a "super hero.")

    Steve Rogers was mourning Bucky ("The Winter Soldier" really was a radical change for Captain America).

    Over at DC, Speedy was found to be a drug user (this was published a few months after Harry Osborn started using drugs).

    TNGSD was a big change for Spider-Man and comics as a whole and literally birthed the Punisher into comics. (And that might be the story's real unsung legacy going by reactions in this thread.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It's a bit more complicated than that. In so far as terrible things had happened in super hero comics well before Gwen's death (And not even as part of the origin like Uncle Ben or Batman's parents).

    Sticking with Spidey for one example, there was the death of Captain Stacy.

    Expanding to the rest of the Marvel Universe, Sue and Johnny's father had already died (Sue named her first born after her father).

    Wonder Man had already died (he just came back to life later. And then died again later. And then came back to life again later.)

    Bruce Banner was a man on the run as his entire life had been ruined by his powers. (Talk about breaking the conventions of super hero storytelling. This man was a wanted fugitive because he, nominally speaking, was a "super hero.")

    Steve Rogers was mourning Bucky ("The Winter Soldier" really was a radical change for Captain America).

    Over at DC, Speedy was found to be a drug user (this was published a few months after Harry Osborn started using drugs).

    TNGSD was a big change for Spider-Man and comics as a whole and literally birthed the Punisher into comics. (And that might be the story's real unsung legacy going by reactions in this thread.)

    And that's why I hate any termed "Age" of comics besides the Golden and Silver Ages. Those two ages had more or less clear beginnings (but not endings, at least, not the Silver Age). But the so called "Bronze Age"? That really didn't start with Gwen Stacy dying, as far as I can tell, comics were already heading for that direction for years before the fact. And while I agree that super-hero comics have been changing their tone constantly in order to achieve realism, I'd say they stopped really evolving into something more realistic sometime in the eighties. Since then, it has been mostly different flavors of "Grim and Dark".

    And well, calling those "Ages" seems rather convoluted if we are going to use descriptors, now that we ran out of Olympic medal's metals: The Dark Age: Noir, the Dark Age: Extreme, the Dark Age: Political, the Dark Age: Ultraviolence etc.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It's a bit more complicated than that. In so far as terrible things had happened in super hero comics well before Gwen's death (And not even as part of the origin like Uncle Ben or Batman's parents).

    Sticking with Spidey for one example, there was the death of Captain Stacy.

    Expanding to the rest of the Marvel Universe, Sue and Johnny's father had already died (Sue named her first born after her father).

    Wonder Man had already died (he just came back to life later. And then died again later. And then came back to life again later.)

    Bruce Banner was a man on the run as his entire life had been ruined by his powers. (Talk about breaking the conventions of super hero storytelling. This man was a wanted fugitive because he, nominally speaking, was a "super hero.")

    Steve Rogers was mourning Bucky ("The Winter Soldier" really was a radical change for Captain America).

    Over at DC, Speedy was found to be a drug user (this was published a few months after Harry Osborn started using drugs).

    TNGSD was a big change for Spider-Man and comics as a whole and literally birthed the Punisher into comics. (And that might be the story's real unsung legacy going by reactions in this thread.)
    Tragic origins aside(which are a different beast altogether), none of those events were as shocking as DoGS as it wiped out the superhero's love interest and arch-nemesis in one fell swoop. It is this Hamletian aspect of the story which makes it so rich in pathos and groundbreaking for comics at the time. George Stacy's death was dwarfed by Gwen's as the latter's death actually negated the shock of the first's. George's dying words to Peter were to take care of Gwen, so subconsciously or consciously, comic book readers probably considered Gwen as "safe" and there for the long run, as that was how comic book story mechanics were expected to work then. Norman too was probably assumed to be the cliched recurring arch villain of the series. So 121 and 122 really shattered all of those assumptions and expectations and turned the whole world of superhero comics upside down.

    And I thought Peter + MJ was the unsung legacy of the story. Gerry Conway has actually come out and said that bringing Peter and MJ together is his greatest contribution at Marvel, over the creation of the Punisher even. Anyways, I don't think people connect Castle to this tale all that much because he could have been introduced even if some other minor or new character related to Spider-Man had been offed or injured in place of Gwen. Still, it is one of the many, many, many ripple effects of this story.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Power View Post
    And well, calling those "Ages" seems rather convoluted if we are going to use descriptors, now that we ran out of Olympic medal's metals: The Dark Age: Noir, the Dark Age: Extreme, the Dark Age: Political, the Dark Age: Ultraviolence etc.
    The 90s' should be called The Post-Apocalyptic Cyborgian Age of Failed Gimmickry: Shoulderpadding.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Coming soon: SpOck, the Superior Spider-Man, will use Doom's time machine to travel back in time and stop Osborn from killing Gwen. This will reset the timeline and lead directly into Marvel's next mega-event, Marvel Right Now!

    I rather he go back in time to stop Normie from impregnating her.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    The 90s' should be called The Post-Apocalyptic Cyborgian Age of Failed Gimmickry: Shoulderpadding.
    The age of Liefield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsg2295 View Post
    The age of Liefield.
    I would be all over it, if it wasn't for the fact that we apparently going back to that age and this time around Liefeld has very little to do with it.

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