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  1. #166
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Sun God View Post
    It changes depending on which version of the character we're referring. Or who writes the character.
    From Action Comics #8:

    Attachment 107283

    All-star Superman #9:

    Attachment 107284
    I thought that in All Star Superman, Superman ultimately defeats Lex because once his Super Senses manifested, once Lex saw the fragility and sanctity of life. He finally understood how Superman saw the world and his biology pushed himn inevitably towards good. In that sense I think it's fair to say that Superman has a genetic inclination towards goodness. Red Son indicated the same thing though that one, the story arc definitely took him from despot to hero.

  2. #167
    Senior Member the Sun God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I thought that in All Star Superman, Superman ultimately defeats Lex because once his Super Senses manifested, once Lex saw the fragility and sanctity of life. He finally understood how Superman saw the world and his biology pushed himn inevitably towards good. In that sense I think it's fair to say that Superman has a genetic inclination towards goodness.
    This is the way Morrison sees the character.
    In Jla #41, the entire world gets Superman's power, and Oracle says to the people: "what we're feeling are new structures opening up in our brains... it's like a preview of evolution. All this amazing stuff you're seeing and feeling is what Superman fells like all the time... it's why he wants to save us."

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by the Sun God; 01-16-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  3. #168
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    There's nothing about Krypton that suggests to me that it had reached some sort of advanced moral state before its demise.
    I thought you told me you read Maggin's novels.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  4. #169
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Wait, when did anyone say there was something wrong with a bright or optimistic Superman. Snyder certainly didn't imply that his Superman would be dark and broody.

    Again, Scott Snyder did not say Superman needs Lois alone to give him confidence. He just sees in her all of the qualities he admires about humanity, so her faith in him gives him hope. It was never suggested Lois was the only source of support or optimism in Superman's life, however.
    Wasn't refering to Snyder. I was refering to others above and pages before that had commented that they didn't want to read about a confident superman, which is what I meant when I said I don't see what's so wrong about it.

    And I was agreeing with you on the idea that he doesn't need just one person, and yes I agree that he does, I was, again, commenting about posters that had stated that it seems that he just needs Lois, which isn't the truth. I liked what Snyder said about Superman.

  5. #170
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Sun God View Post
    This is the way Morrison sees the character.
    In Jla #41, the entire world gets Superman's power, and Oracle says to the people: "what we're feeling are new structures opening up in our brains... it's like a preview of evolution. All this amazing stuff you're seeing and feeling is what Superman fells like all the time... it's why he wants to save us."

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Superman is without a doubt morally superior in part due to his genetic makeup. That's where the whole Man of Tomorrow thing comes in. He's not human, he is a very, very genetically advanced and evolved human. Kryptonians are what humans may one day grow up to be. We are like children next to them.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  6. #171
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Superman is without a doubt morally superior in part due to his genetic makeup. That's where the whole Man of Tomorrow thing comes in. He's not human, he is a very, very genetically advanced and evolved human. Kryptonians are what humans may one day grow up to be. We are like children next to them.

    I was trying to find a golden age origin story where, not only the moral superiority (evidenced by the non lethal phantom zone), but the physical superiority was mentioned. I thought it was Binder/Boring if not Siegel/Shuster... That's what made the Gibbons Moore Krypton seem so dystopic in "For the Man Who Had Everything", it was the idyllic Krypton poisoned by Superman struggling against the Black Mercy.



    Sorry Super Off Topic!

    I am all in for this Snyder Series though. Lobdell and Morrison have been great, but I was a bit jealous that the new (Vertigo) talent was heading toward the Dark Line and the Bat Books. I hope Diggle has a story to tell as well. I have like the clues that Snyder has given so far.
    Last edited by Coyote2010; 01-16-2013 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #172
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    I thought you told me you read Maggin's novels.
    I have but when I speak about advanced morals I'm speaking of something cultural and not something genetic. More importantly, I believe I was talking about this New 52 universe's Krypton. Maggin's novels aren't fact. They are one interpretation, so if it appears in his work it is still not a universal truth that Krypton is morally more advanced by their nature.

  8. #173
    Junior Member jllonchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Well it's what he always does if Lois is never around or dies in many comic scenarios. And you people are the ones who say Lois is the only one who can give him humanity and to care for people etc etc and teach him what he needs to know as his guiding light blah blah. It's what misslane has been preeaching for months around here. Seems the moment she's gone, he forgets. And what do you know...another comic book scenario crops up again in Injustice.
    It's not though. There's been at least one time I remember where he thought Lois died and didn't go off the deep end because he knew it isn't what Lois would've wanted. He couldn't kill the guy who murdered her because that would basically destroy the good they had together. There are a number of writers who follow this same trope over and over though and I don't think there's any fans of Lois who want her to be used as the catalyst for Clark going dark. Especially not when she's pregnant.

    Lois isn't the only person who can teach him or be a guiding light to him. I think she'd one of the important ones and she's a good one, but there are a number of people in Superman's life who have guided him. It's just sad that in the new 52 that at least two of them are dead.

  9. #174
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If you would have said beforehand that you were referring to comments you had seen elsewhere and not here, I wouldn't have accused you of anything. You make a blanket statement like that at a particular board, of course anyone's going to think you're broadly accusing people at that location of the comments.

    But the poor thing has to to endure other people having a blog that has the effrontery to not share his/her opinion!

    It amuses me how some posters here are quick to report or rather misrepresent hugely what we say on our tumblr while we don't frankly give a crap what they do or think or ship or how they ship. Did you all know that our tumblr blogs on Lois everyday and supports misogny? Yeah, that lie even went to Andy Diggle. It was news to us too. Just as it was news to us when someone here on the poll thread said we claimed we had thousands of followers too when no one ever said such a thing.

    Take with a huge pinch of salt some of the claims and accusations. Must come visit us some time and see for yourself.
    Last edited by hellacre; 01-16-2013 at 05:35 PM.
    http://superman-wonderwoman.deviantart.com/ (featuring some of the best superman/wonder woman art )

  10. #175
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Superman is without a doubt morally superior in part due to his genetic makeup. That's where the whole Man of Tomorrow thing comes in. He's not human, he is a very, very genetically advanced and evolved human. Kryptonians are what humans may one day grow up to be. We are like children next to them.
    Who's to say an evolved human equals a superior human? Genetics and biology alone don't create morality. Morality has a cultural component (it is nurtured by one's society and by one's parents), and as a result what may be viewed as a virtue by one society isn't universally accepted as a virtue by another. Moreover, this is a tricky truism to use because that implies that Superman can never be written to err morally or ethically. Certainly the New 52 Superman is not an ideal specimen of advanced Kryptonian virtue. Also, in Maggin's work, Jor-El is said to have created the Phantom Zone for criminals. The fact that criminals exist disproves any universally superior morality. If they were so advanced morally, why was the cause of its demise pride in that they refused to believe Jor-El and mocked him? Genetically speaking, from what I've read nurture helps to express one's nature. Therefore, even if Superman had superior moral potential, his upbringing among what you're describing as the childish morality of humans would have impeded the expression of that gene.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    It amuses me how some posters here are quick to report or rather misrepresent hugely what we say on our tumblr while we don't frankly give a crap what they do or think or ship or how they ship. Did you all know that our tumblr blogs on Lois everyday and supports misogny?
    Your blog claimed that women who like Superman/Lois as a couple must like abusive relationships (e.g. "their desire is to be abused, rejected, disrespected by the men in their lives."). More details can be found here.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-16-2013 at 05:41 PM.

  11. #176
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    That is true, why would a perfect man have flaws, and why would a perfect society have criminals?

    So the way I see it is this... Superman (Nu 52 Superman) if you buy that he's part of the All Star story, is very much a young Superman. Absolutely he is not the refinedGolden Ideal that All Star ends at, but if you look at his story as allegory, he takes a journey that begins with frailty and ends with perfection. His flaws make that journey relateable to us.

    The Phantom Zone, a non violent solution to aberrant behavior. Even Heaven suffered Angels in revolt, so perhaps their is something about the flaw that contributes to it's perfection. Certainly as an allegory, the downfall of Krypton is much more resonant because it's a story about a society that ignored it's greatest hero, Jor-El. Superman on the other hand still exists as that ideal and I still find that genetic component of superior vision leading to a superior sense of compassion.

    Isn't that the lesson? If you expand your vision you expand your understanding. That's the message I found in All Star and the JLA panel posted earlier.


    BUT since I mentioned All Star,one of the biggest lump in my throats moments is when Superman One Million travels to Jonathan Kents funeral and gives young Clark an indestructible flower... I wish I could remember the quote but he essentially tells his younger self that Jonathan Kent was mankind perfected! Talk about Superman! Whoah!
    Last edited by Coyote2010; 01-16-2013 at 06:00 PM.

  12. #177
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    Isn't that the lesson? If you expand your vision you expand your understanding. That's the message I found in All Star and the JLA panel posted earlier.
    Seeing isn't everything. It's how you interpret what your senses perceive that's important. How we interpret the world around us is influenced by how we are nurtured in the micro and macrosystems that comprise our lives. Even in All Star Superman the Kryptonians Lilo and Bar-El are presented as something akin to white supremacists, except instead of white superiority they believe in Kryptonian superiority; their Kryptonian morality clashes with Superman's which doesn't believe it's right to treat humans as apes like they do.

  13. #178
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Seeing isn't everything. It's how you interpret what your senses perceive that's important. How we interpret the world around us is influenced by how we are nurtured in the micro and macrosystems that comprise our lives. Even in All Star Superman the Kryptonians Lilo and Bar-El are presented as something akin to white supremacists, except instead of white superiority they believe in Kryptonian superiority; their Kryptonian morality clashes with Superman's which doesn't believe it's right to treat humans as apes like they do.
    Very true, but by the end, they see the world very much because of Superman's influence. So that Nurture argument does hold weight. I still think the metaphor is itentional, that improved vision can equal compassion. Superman as Man of Tomorrow redeems them though.

  14. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by jllonchas View Post
    It's not though. There's been at least one time I remember where he thought Lois died and didn't go off the deep end because he knew it isn't what Lois would've wanted. He couldn't kill the guy who murdered her because that would basically destroy the good they had together. There are a number of writers who follow this same trope over and over though and I don't think there's any fans of Lois who want her to be used as the catalyst for Clark going dark. Especially not when she's pregnant.

    Lois isn't the only person who can teach him or be a guiding light to him. I think she'd one of the important ones and she's a good one, but there are a number of people in Superman's life who have guided him. It's just sad that in the new 52 that at least two of them are dead.
    The idea that Clark wouldn't go off the deep end and lose all his sense of hope and morality because he knows Lois wouldn't want him to is just as weak. Sorry. HE should not want to. By HIMSELF. He has done enough, known enough, seen enough as a reporter and hero and lived as a man etc to know better. And everyone who cares for him would not want him to. That would include Lois and everyone who calls him friend, ally, comrade, brother etc. He is not a hero for Lois. Least not her alone. He does not do what he does for her. The day he does then to me that takes away the core of Superman. He would not want to disappoint her and everyone else. Including parents, friends and the people who look up to him.

    I agree Lois is one of the people who can offer support and perspective but making her the only tether is lame and lazy imo.

    When Clark died, did Lois turn her back on all she knew and worked hard to fight for? No.

    Well to me Superman never would if he is written correctly. I get he could grieve if he suffered a loss. But I also think he is resilent and a character of hope and hope is always renewed. People die. It's part of life. Parents die and if they did their job right, we remember what they taught us. It does not matter if the Kents are not here because they would still be influencing him.

  15. #180
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    Very true, but by the end, they see the world very much because of Superman's influence. So that Nurture argument does hold weight. I still think the metaphor is itentional, that improved vision can equal compassion. Superman as Man of Tomorrow redeems them though.
    Also implied in "Birthright," no? He sees souls, and the vision of that compels him to be kinder.

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