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  1. #136
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think you can write a perfectly fine story in which he checks in with Lois to get those answers. You can write a perfectly fine story in which he uses his journalistic skills (which are just as good as hers, and probably better because he's, well, Superman) and figure it out himself. It's just a matter of preference, which each of us has already stated.
    But this isn't something investigative reporting skills will solve. This is about experience. Superman, as an alien and as a superhero, is biased. He cannot see himself from a human's perspective -- the outsider looking in -- to determine if he's on the right track. Superman, if anything, relies on the love and support of the public to continue his never-ending battle. He's supposed to be a light to show them the way. Humanity is supposed to join him in the sun. Thus, if humanity rejects Superman, his mission and purpose are fundamentally compromised. If Lois Lane of all people loses faith in Superman, then he knows he's screwed.

    I do agree there are certain things she would be more familiar with, but if it's about things like the "human condition" or whatever you want to call it, I would likely disagree. He's an "alien superhero," but he's got the insight and temperament of an "average joe," too. He didn't arrive on Earth yesterday, he's lived on in and observed it with keen eyes, ears, and mental clarity for 27+ years, and I'd say he's even thought about things like what it means to be human more than most.
    Superman knows what it is like for him to play the part of the Average Joe. But he's not an Average Joe. He does not know what it feels like to be powerless and to witness gods fighting cosmic battles that might determine your fate.

    If you want to say Superman is the type of guy who believes the more data points the better, then I'll go along with a story in which he shops around for info every chance he gets.
    Snyder seems poised to write a story in which Superman consults a variety of sources -- his own "Team of Rivals" -- to assess the viability of potential choices. If Superman is going to be portrayed as the type of hero and leader who would do something so critical and admirable, then I'll be immeasurably pleased.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-16-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by jllonchas View Post
    So you're saying that if someone you loved were to die under horrible circumstances you'd face the day right away and not need some time in order to get yourself together? Superman or not, the guy does need a chance to regroup after a tragic loss. Though I think the use of Lois as the means to make him go crazy is getting ridiculous.
    Well it's what he always does if Lois is never around or dies in many comic scenarios. And you people are the ones who say Lois is the only one who can give him humanity and to care for people etc etc and teach him what he needs to know as his guiding light blah blah. It's what misslane has been preeaching for months around here. Seems the moment she's gone, he forgets. And what do you know...another comic book scenario crops up again in Injustice.
    Last edited by kylesgirl; 01-16-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #138
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Powers and inherent goodness (he's better than we are) are all that separate him from us. He has the same emotional conflicts, spiritual highs and lows, that we have. Like Batman once said, in many ways, Superman is more human than any of us.

    I do agree, though, that it's a huge problem if Lois Lane loses faith in Superman. I like to think of her as the one human, above all others, who will unconditionally have his back, and if she no longer does, then Superman really screwed the pooch.

  4. #139
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    And you people are the ones who say Lois is the only one who can give him humanity and to care for people etc etc and teach him what he needs to know as his guiding light blah blah. It's what misslane has been preeaching for months around here. Seems the moment she's gone, he forgets.
    I'll repeat this for you for what seems to be the hundredth time: I have never said Lois Lane gives Superman his humanity. NEVER. I have never said Lois Lane makes Superman care for people. NEVER. I have not been preaching either of those ideas for months or ever. I've said it is because Superman has his own humanity and it is because he cares for people that he is drawn to Lois Lane. Loving Lois Lane is Superman's way of making his own innate humanity and his love for humanity less abstract and more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Powers and inherent goodness (he's better than we are) are all that separate him from us. He has the same emotional conflicts, spiritual highs and lows, that we have.
    Superman is not better than us. Possessing more power doesn't make someone better. If Superman genuinely believed that he was morally superior to humans, then he would never seek to be an inspiration to humanity. Why try to encourage humanity to join him in the sun if he believes they can never meet him there?

    And, on a romantic side note, if Superman can understand human emotional conflicts, spiritual highs and lows, then I sure as hell don't want to hear about how humans cannot possibly understand him. An alien cannot be said to be fully capable of understanding what it's like to be human yet a human cannot be said to be fully capable of understanding what it's like to be alien.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-16-2013 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #140
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Superman is not better than us.
    And it seems there's going to be very little on the character we're ever going to agree on.

  6. #141
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    And it seems there's going to be very little on the character we're ever going to agree on.
    What makes him better? Let's look at his qualities. On the inside, his morals and character are credited to humans: the Kents. On the surface, his powers make him strong and intelligent. Being smart and powerful alone are frequently characterized as insufficient when it comes to superiority because there are others with Superman's same abilities or similar abilities who abuse that power. So, it's what's on the inside that sets him apart and what's on the inside is the result of humanity's influence on him. He is not Jesus Christ. He is not a god. His whole mission is about inspiring humans to access the power within so they can join him in the sun. Join him, not look up at him from below.

    The world is full of exceptional people. The people in the world who do kindnesses, or search for truth despite their lives being at risk. The engineers, the teachers, the doctors and adoptive parents, the scholars and the firemen, and yes, the journalists. People who risk everything for the sake of others, and those who simply try to help those whose need might be greater than their own. Those people inspire me, not the other way around. They’re my magnetic north, if you will. They’re the WHY of it all. […] The world needs them more than it needs me. […] They’re special. I think they were all meant to do great things. Maybe greater in their way than what I can do. — Superman

  7. #142
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think it's long been part of the narrative that Superman is a morally superior fellow than we are, directly stated or not. Superman would never say it, because saying you're morally superior to people is kind of contradictory to being morally superior, but he is. And in fact, that's one of the silly things that makes him better than we are, because he dwells not on his greatness but the greatness of others.

    In short, he thinks he's no better than any one of us, but people around him know that's not true.

    If you disagree, fine, but that's half the reason why I ended up liking him more than Batman, the X-Men, Spidey, etc.

    Have the last word, because we've hit that aforementioned impasse a long time ago.

  8. #143
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think it's long been part of the narrative that Superman is a morally superior fellow than we are, directly stated or not. Superman would never say it, because saying you're morally superior to people is kind of contradictory to being morally superior, but he is. And in fact, that's one of the silly things that makes him better than we are, because he dwells not on his greatness but the greatness of others.
    But his superior morality comes from the Kents. Morality isn't genetic. And if your proposing that Superman is somehow miraculously blessed with a superior soul, then you are likening him to a god. Superman is not a god. He's not Jesus Christ. He's an alien with special abilities that are derived from his DNA. His morality -- his sense of right and wrong -- was shaped by the Kents. Superman, if he truly believed he was morally superior to humans, would view his role in the world as a paternalistic father figure instead of someone who inspires humanity to join him in the sun. Finally, if Superman truly is morally superior, then why does he do things he knows are morally wrong like spying on a woman he has a crush on?

  9. #144
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Ok, my real last post, until it's back on topic again.

    His morality came from the Kents, and he improved upon it.

    He spied on Lois because even the best aren't perfect, and everyone screws up once in a while.

  10. #145
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    I'd like to think that Superman has a better morality because of his superior DNA. I mean when morals came up in Star Trek the next generation you would usually hear that they evolved to the point where they would automatically chose the right decision other the wrong decision like the topic of nuclear weapons for instance.

  11. #146
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    His morality came from the Kents, and he improved upon it.
    How exactly did he do that all by himself?

    He spied on Lois because even the best aren't perfect, and everyone screws up once in a while.
    "To err is human."

    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    I'd like to think that Superman has a better morality because of his superior DNA. I mean when morals came up in Star Trek the next generation you would usually hear that they evolved to the point where they would automatically chose the right decision other the wrong decision like the topic of nuclear weapons for instance.
    But Kryptonians don't have morally superior DNA. Their society was not a utopia.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    How exactly did he do that all by himself?



    "To err is human."



    But Kryptonians don't have morally superior DNA. Their society was not a utopia.
    I don't know about that, a singular world govement governing over krypton ensuring planetary peace seems pretty morally advanced to me. The only hiccup so far seems to be the whole clone issue.

  13. #148
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    I don't know about that, a singular world govement governing over krypton ensuring planetary peace seems pretty morally advanced to me. The only hiccup so far seems to be the whole clone issue.
    There's nothing about Krypton that suggests to me that it had reached some sort of advanced moral state before its demise.

  14. #149
    Senior Member the Sun God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    There's nothing about Krypton that suggests to me that it had reached some sort of advanced moral state before its demise.
    In the Golden/Silver Age, Krypton was an utopian civilization based on 11 Virtues: http://kryptonian.info/kryptonian-cu...d-virtues.html
    Then came John Byrne and has screw up everything.
    Last edited by the Sun God; 01-16-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  15. #150
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Sun God View Post
    In the Golden/Silver Age, Krypton was an utopian civilization based on 11 Virtues: http://kryptonian.info/kryptonian-cu...d-virtues.html
    Then came John Byrne and has screw up everything.
    A society can be based on a certain set of virtues yet fail to follow them all the time. On the 90s television series Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, for example, it was suggested that Superman had ushered in a future utopian society, but it was also a society that created one of Superman's greatest villains on that show: Tempus. I've read Silver Age stories set on Krypton that did not depict it as a morally perfect place free of all evil and sin.

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