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  1. #121

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    Maybe this explains why when Lois dies Superman can't do a thing for himself, or remember why he choose to be a champion of the people but just go nuts and cry and run away.

  2. #122
    Junior Member jllonchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercroc View Post
    It's clear Snyder's interview, while he is genuinely enthusiastic, is pandering to the crowd ie the bias of the podcasters who want to hear how great Lois is.The desire to hear she is greater than Wonder Woman too was so obvious. You know I just don't see this guiding star thing in Lois. Lois' reporting (what we are privy to) mostly has been Superman orientated, with romantic involvement so there is clear bias and keeping truths from the public. I'd don't see know she can know the responsibility of what a Superman has to do either. Nor do I see her knowing the loneliness of a guy who feels alienated and is an alien because she doesn't talk to her dad. Come on. I get she can offer a lot of support and perspective as well but this nonsense he needs her to make his decisions? It's grasping at straws. Batman, yes in many ways I get. Because Batman searches for truth too and can do very hard things etc and knows the sacrifices it takes etc.

    I see Jonathan Kent as his north star if I ever had to even slot one person as that. Jonathan Kent is the voice in his head usually. But I'd like to think a moral compass has zero to do with one person. That is simplistic. It is choice, life experience, decisions etc. Integrity, responsibilty, compassion, ethics etc...they don't come from one person and are learnt over time.
    I'm unsure which comics you've read to get the idea that Lois' reporting is only Superman related. She's definitely one of the main people reporting on Superman, though Clark does it quite a bit too, but she's been shown to cover a multitude of things, from presidential elections to various corrupt organizations in Metropolis and elsewhere. Heck she got shot while she was covering a war in (I think it was) the middle east. There's a reason the lady is known as a reporter to the rest of the world and is constantly brought up in news discussions for her journalistic integrity and what she does.

    As for if she can know loneliness, I'd definitely say she can. While there are definitely a number of women in the newspaper industry it's still very much a man's world. She's not one who is able to be bribed, she's not one who will back down from a story, and that can lead you to a very lonely place in a newsroom if you are a woman or even a man. It takes a lot of inner strength and determination in yourself to get that far ahead.

    I'd like to know why it works for Batman to need someone to look to every so often for guidance but it doesn't work for Superman?

  3. #123
    Junior Member jllonchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Maybe this explains why when Lois dies Superman can't do a thing for himself, or remember why he choose to be a champion of the people but just go nuts and cry and run away.
    So you're saying that if someone you loved were to die under horrible circumstances you'd face the day right away and not need some time in order to get yourself together? Superman or not, the guy does need a chance to regroup after a tragic loss. Though I think the use of Lois as the means to make him go crazy is getting ridiculous.

  4. #124
    Junior Member Drokki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    You're hating on something then that no one has said. I don't know where you heard the argument that Superman is secure in himself because of Diana. You seem to just be making that up.
    No.

    I follow the superman tag on tumblr, and the superman and wondy blog, (which makes a lot, A LOT of posts under said tag) , during the time JL12 -13-14-15 were released has been constantly posting how secure of himself he is now that he's going after Diana, because of course, he was a wimp before. Following the Superman tag on tumblr meant many of us had to endure those constant arguments based only on shipping preferences.



    So, when I saw that hellacre, one of the runners of that blog, brought this up again in this thread with this comment:

    ...sounds like we will have a very broody, doubting Superman too. I really really hoped we 'd see the back of that aspect of Clark with the new 52...

    ...Bringing up the whole issue again, which was that Superman, in the new52, is none of those things. Which I'm sure in their minds are attributed to not being with Lois Lane, judging by the logic of the previous posts I mentioned, I had to make a comment. So no, I'm not hating on something that no one has said and please, don't accuse me of making things up either.
    Last edited by Drokki; 01-16-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  5. #125
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    I don't see what's wrong with haveing a confident superman, I don't see the issue with having one that's bright and optimistic. I've seen those posts too, they're made more frequently at Bleeding cool and comic vine, along with tumblr and some bloggers. What I can't understand is the idea that Superman needs anyone person to be confident with. Isn't the point of his confidence supposed to come from those that support him, family, friends, both Lois, Diana, and the rest of the JL? Didn't we go over this whole grim and gritty issue way back with the comic where Superman showed what he would be like if he went beyond that limit? It doesn't work for him.

  6. #126
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killercroc View Post
    It's clear Snyder's interview, while he is genuinely enthusiastic, is pandering to the crowd ie the bias of the podcasters who want to hear how great Lois is.The desire to hear she is greater than Wonder Woman too was so obvious.
    Snyder didn't describe Lois as greater than Wonder Woman.

    Lois' reporting (what we are privy to) mostly has been Superman orientated, with romantic involvement so there is clear bias and keeping truths from the public.
    Clark was working the Superman beat, so Lois was absolutely not covering Superman most of the time. We saw Lois reporting on automated job stealing in Action (robots replacing human workers) and on mobsters (Grundig). We also know she's interviewed the President of the United States. In the New 52, Lois is also not romantically involved with Superman, so there's no bias involved. During other eras, when Lois was romantically involved with Superman, she had no problem publicly criticizing Superman. Besides protecting his secret identity, I can't recall a single instance of her keeping vital truths about Superman from the public.

    I'd don't see know she can know the responsibility of what a Superman has to do either.
    Do you understand and relate to Superman's responsibilities as a hero? Do you feel like you appreciate what he has to do? If you can do it, why can't Lois Lane?

    Nor do I see her knowing the loneliness of a guy who feels alienated and is an alien because she doesn't talk to her dad.
    Elliot S. Maggin, an influence Snyder cited in the interview, described how Lois and Superman both understand loneliness:

    "Before Lois met Superman, she would have said, she was both an overachiever and a lost soul, and without him she would have been a casualty of her own brute competence. She would still have been the first girl to edit the Hightstown High School newspaper, the first female valedictorian of her college class, and one of the first women to win a Pulitzer Traveling Fellowship from Columbia University. And with nothing better to do with her time, she would certainly have been a millionaire by the age of twenty-five, and a burned-out husk who had conquered all the worlds she had ever known by the age of thirty.

    She would have said, in her characteristic colorful overstatement, that she used to go out with men who would have made Gloria Steinem and Lillian Hellman blush, and that, without exception, she was so unmoved by them she was in the habit of crying herself to sleep.

    Lois would have said that before she met Superman she was a spoiled little girl who had never been said no to, who had never had her heart broken, and who would have died of loneliness by now if it were not for Superman. She would have asked him if he had any idea of what it was like to be totally alone, and he would have said that he did.

    He would have confessed that now, without Clark behind whom to hide, he was afraid that he would soon die of loneliness himself. She would have cried again, he would have joined her, and they would have decided that they desperately needed each other."

    One doesn't have to be an alien superhero in order to understand loneliness.

    Come on. I get she can offer a lot of support and perspective as well but this nonsense he needs her to make his decisions? It's grasping at straws. Batman, yes in many ways I get. Because Batman searches for truth too and can do very hard things etc and knows the sacrifices it takes etc.
    At no point in the interview did Snyder suggest Superman needs Lois to make his decisions. He said Superman looks to Lois as his North Star because she represents the good in humanity he has faith in and thus strives to protect. When he mentioned that Superman would be receiving ethical/philosophical counsel in his series, it was in addition to other characters Superman would consult.

    I see Jonathan Kent as his north star if I ever had to even slot one person as that. Jonathan Kent is the voice in his head usually. But I'd like to think a moral compass has zero to do with one person. That is simplistic. It is choice, life experience, decisions etc. Integrity, responsibilty, compassion, ethics etc...they don't come from one person and are learnt over time.
    Scott Snyder did not say Lois Lane was Superman's one and only moral compass. He said that she's a symbol of humanity for Superman. If Lois Lane still has faith in Superman and still believes he's on the right track, then he feels like he's doing okay. Look at the Man of Steel trailer, for instance. One can see that Lois accepts rather than rejects Superman despite what appears to be public mistrust. As a symbol of humanity -- a North Star -- Lois demonstrates that the world is ready for Superman. She gives him hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Maybe this explains why when Lois dies Superman can't do a thing for himself, or remember why he choose to be a champion of the people but just go nuts and cry and run away.
    Usually, Lois Lane's death is not the sole reason for Superman abandoning the never-ending battle or his principles. There are other factors at play that should not be ignored to create a fallacious argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    I don't see what's wrong with haveing a confident superman, I don't see the issue with having one that's bright and optimistic.
    Wait, when did anyone say there was something wrong with a bright or optimistic Superman. Snyder certainly didn't imply that his Superman would be dark and broody.

    What I can't understand is the idea that Superman needs anyone person to be confident with. Isn't the point of his confidence supposed to come from those that support him, family, friends, both Lois, Diana, and the rest of the JL?
    Again, Scott Snyder did not say Superman needs Lois alone to give him confidence. He just sees in her all of the qualities he admires about humanity, so her faith in him gives him hope. It was never suggested Lois was the only source of support or optimism in Superman's life, however.

  7. #127
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jllonchas View Post
    I'd like to know why it works for Batman to need someone to look to every so often for guidance but it doesn't work for Superman?
    I'm not sure it works that well with Batman, either. The rare times I can imagine Batman looking to someone for advice might be on something purely academic or scientific (because Batman doesn't know more than everyone, contrary to some's beliefs), or if it's someone with a lot more life experience on the matter. So occasionally, he might look up to Alfred or Gordon, but that's because they've been around longer than Batman has. I can't even imagine seeing Batman go to Superman for advice. If Superman tried to advise Batman, I think it'd be more because the two disagreed on an issue and whatever "advice" Superman were giving would be more like evidence to support an argument.

    In current continuity, the people Superman would look to advice the most are dead. I'd rather seem him do the majority of his learning by observing his and other people's mistakes. That's not to say it never happens, but he's got peers who are on his level, but not so many mentors who are above him.

    He could've looked up to Perry White, but currently they don't work together anymore.

  8. #128
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    In current continuity, the people Superman would look to advice the most are dead.
    The Kents were paragons of ethics and morality, I'm sure. However, the idea that they would be fully equipped to provide their son with the exact counsel he requires at any given moment doesn't work for me.

    I'd rather seem him do the majority of his learning by observing his and other people's mistakes. That's not to say it never happens, but he's got peers who are on his level, but not so many mentors who are above him.
    What's wrong with looking to one's peers for wisdom?

    He could've looked up to Perry White, but currently they don't work together anymore.
    Why is it that Superman can look up to Jonathan Kent, Martha Kent, and Perry White but someone like Lois Lane is unworthy? It seems the Superman that Snyder will be writing is coping with a particularly complicated sociopolitical issue. Lois Lane, as a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, knows politics, power, and the public. And, as a human, she's uniquely able to appreciate how the general public and the military might respond to Superman's ethical/moral choices. Superman can't get that sort of wisdom from just anyone.

  9. #129
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    What's wrong with looking to one's peers for wisdom?
    It's okay, on occasion, but throughout the most part they are at his level and don't have a greater understanding of certain issues than he does. You're always free to ask, but unless the other person knows more than you, it's a case of the blind leading the blind.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Why is it that Superman can look up to Jonathan Kent, Martha Kent, and Perry White but someone like Lois Lane is unworthy? It seems the Superman that Snyder will be writing is coping with a particularly complicated sociopolitical issue. Lois Lane, as a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, knows politics, power, and the public. And, as a human, she's uniquely able to appreciate how the general public and the military might respond to Superman's ethical/moral choices. Superman can't get that sort of wisdom from just anyone.
    See my point about "life experience."

    There are certain issues that Lois is going to be more knowledgeable on, but that should be rare. And in general, I prefer stories when heroes figure stuff out on their own, using observation and abstraction, instead of having stuff told to them, so even if Perry, the Kents, or Jor-El were around to have tea and scones with, he shouldn't be going to them for answers too often.

    EDIT: It's actually one of the things about Lois & Clark that started to bug me. How many times was Clark going to get on the phone and ask his folks for advice? I think when they added the actors for Ma and Pa Kent to the credits, it's a clip of them each holding a handset.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 01-16-2013 at 10:52 AM.

  10. #130
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    It's okay, on occasion, but throughout the most part they are at his level and don't have a greater understanding of certain issues than he does. You're always free to ask, but unless the other person knows more than you, it's a case of the blind leading the blind.
    But if, in this case, Lois does have a greater understanding of these issues (or at least a valuable perspective), then there shouldn't be a problem. Great leaders aren't great because they have all of the answers. Great leaders, like Abraham Lincoln, for instance, are great because they know whose counsel to seek and how to weigh the wisdom of others before taking action.

    There are certain issues that Lois is going to be more knowledgeable on, but that should be rare.
    Of course, we wouldn't want her to be written as knowledgeable. You know it is possible for two characters, like Superman and Lois Lane, to be portrayed as intelligent and wise without diminishing the other.

    And in general, I prefer stories when heroes figure stuff out on their own, using observation and abstraction, instead of having stuff told to them, so even if Perry, the Kents, or Jor-El were around to have tea and scones with, he shouldn't be going to them for answers too often.
    Even Sherlock Holmes relies on Watson's valuable perspective to solve crime mysteries. The Doctor frequently benefits from the wisdom of his companions in Doctor Who. The idea that heroes shouldn't be seen to benefit from the counsel of others doesn't reflect the reality that many of them do. What heroes do is take everything they've learned from experience and the counsel they've received or sought to make critical decisions. I can't think of a single heroic epic that featured a hero who did not rely on the counsel of others.

  11. #131
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    But if, in this case, Lois does have a greater understanding of these issues (or at least a valuable perspective), then there shouldn't be a problem. Great leaders aren't great because they have all of the answers. Great leaders, like Abraham Lincoln, for instance, are great because they know whose counsel to seek and how to weigh the wisdom of others before taking action.
    If she really did have a greater understanding, then sure. Like, for instance, if it were his first day on the job, then of course he should gather info from Lois. My belief is that most pressing issues about humanity, though, he doesn't need advice anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Of course, we wouldn't want her to be written as knowledgeable. You know it is possible for two characters, like Superman and Lois Lane, to be portrayed as intelligent and wise without diminishing the other.
    No need for snark.

    Here's a ridiculous example, but makes my point. Say Superman wanted to know what it's like to raise kids. Would he go to Lois? Of course not. They're "peers" because they're both single (or in previous continuity, married) and neither were parents. That doesn't mean Lois doesn't have valid things to say, but since they're both equally inexperienced, it would be a ridiculous scene in a book. Now if he needed to know what it's like to have a sister, then he should, by all means, ask her a ton of questions.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Even Sherlock Holmes relies on Watson's valuable perspective to solve crime mysteries. The Doctor frequently benefits from the wisdom of his companions in Doctor Who. The idea that heroes shouldn't be seen to benefit from the counsel of others doesn't reflect the reality that many of them do. What heroes do is take everything they've learned from experience and the counsel they've received or sought to make critical decisions. I can't think of a single heroic epic that featured a hero who did not rely on the counsel of others.
    I see we're about to hit an impasse, so I'll just go back to my first statement and leave it at that. If he needs to ask advice, it should be rare. You may disagree, or have a different meaning for "rare," but that's my take. I like these stories better when Superman figures things out using observation and deduction, with occasional input from others.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 01-16-2013 at 11:07 AM.

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    Why can't people just write Superman as a man who can see the good in the world without anyone to show him?

    Sure it's what makes him somewhat unbelievable but that's what defined him for so many years, it's what has made him into the definative superhero. I want a Clark that gets out of bed each morning and simply says "I'm going to do good today." And not a Clark that rushes off to others to simply question if he did the right thing.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Why is it that Superman can look up to Jonathan Kent, Martha Kent, and Perry White but someone like Lois Lane is unworthy? It seems the Superman that Snyder will be writing is coping with a particularly complicated sociopolitical issue. Lois Lane, as a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, knows politics, power, and the public. And, as a human, she's uniquely able to appreciate how the general public and the military might respond to Superman's ethical/moral choices. Superman can't get that sort of wisdom from just anyone.
    Because those people listed are parental figures whether it be actual parents or someone you look up to. It's weird that he looks up to lois even if she is a award winning journalist because she on all levels is his equal in both career and life.

    Sure she can offer little nuggets of knowledge from time to time, but when it becomes too much too often is when it becomes annoying, when it seems that he is questioning why he saves the day is when it feels wrong.

  14. #134
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    If she really did have a greater understanding, then sure. Like, for instance, if it were his first day on the job, then of course he should gather info from Lois. My belief is that most pressing issues about humanity, though, he doesn't need advice anymore.
    Superman is an alien with superpowers. You don't think it might be wise to consult a human who has won awards for her ability to understand and shape public opinion on matters of human sociopolitical significance? You don't think that it would be wise to check-in with someone like Lois Lane once and awhile to figure out if humanity still has faith in you and sees your side of the story?

    Here's a ridiculous example, but makes my point. Say Superman wanted to know what it's like to raise kids. Would he go to Lois? Of course not. They're "peers" because they're both single (or in previous continuity, married) and neither were parents. That doesn't mean Lois doesn't have valid things to say, but since they're both equally inexperienced, it would be a ridiculous scene in a book. Now if he needed to know what it's like to have a sister, then he should, by all means, ask her a ton of questions.
    I think the idea is that by simply talking things through with someone, including someone who may be similarly inexperienced, one might be able to work through a tough issue together. Neither Lois nor Clark would have all the answers in your child-rearing example, but by pooling their different ideas and perspectives, they might come close to figuring out an ideal course of action. Besides, we're not discussing the idea that Superman will be consulting with Lois on matters she does not understand perhaps more clearly than he does. He's an alien superhero who is being challenged by a complex ethical/philosophical issue that likely involves navigating public opinion and the government/military. As a human and as a a molder of public opinion with ties to the government/military, Lois is exactly the North Star that Superman should seek out.

    I see we're about to hit an impasse, so I'll just go back to my first statement and leave it at that. If he needs to ask advice, it should be rare. You may disagree, or have a different meaning for "rare," but that's my take. I like these stories better when Superman figures things out using observation and deduction, with occasional input from others.
    Observation and deduction involves gathering information and ideas from a variety of different perspectives. All of the greatest heroes and leaders do this. I think where we might be misunderstanding each other is our different ideas of the process of decision-making. You seem to believe I am suggesting Superman essentially should rarely make decisions for himself without consulting someone else -- that he should seek advice from a peer and follow it to the letter without trusting his own instincts. Not true. I believe Superman ultimately figures out things for himself as long as he gathers ideas and advice from multiple sources and comes to his own version of the ideal solution. In matters relating to heroes' relationship with humanity and its power structures, I believe Lois Lane is a valuable source of counsel that Superman would be wise to consider in times of crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Why can't people just write Superman as a man who can see the good in the world without anyone to show him?
    What? Snyder didn't describe anything of the sort. It is Superman's affection for Lois Lane that is proof that he can see the good in the world. That's what Snyder is saying. Lois doesn't show Superman there's good in the world. She's the evidence he sees.

    Sure it's what makes him somewhat unbelievable but that's what defined him for so many years, it's what has made him into the definative superhero. I want a Clark that gets out of bed each morning and simply says "I'm going to do good today." And not a Clark that rushes off to others to simply question if he did the right thing.
    Superman never did anything close to what you're claiming he did nor has Snyder suggested that's the sort of Superman story he intends to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Because those people listed are parental figures whether it be actual parents or someone you look up to. It's weird that he looks up to lois even if she is a award winning journalist because she on all levels is his equal in both career and life.
    Superman looks up to Lois because she fearlessly pursues justice without superpowers. In that particular respect, they are not equals.

    Sure she can offer little nuggets of knowledge from time to time, but when it becomes too much too often is when it becomes annoying, when it seems that he is questioning why he saves the day is when it feels wrong.
    It's a good thing that rarely, if ever, happens.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-16-2013 at 11:39 AM.

  15. #135
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Superman is an alien with superpowers. You don't think it might be wise to consult a human who has won awards for her ability to understand and shape public opinion on matters pertaining matters of human sociopolitical significance? You don't think that it would be wise to check-in with someone like Lois Lane once and awhile to figure out if humanity still has faith in you and sees your side of the story?
    I think you can write a perfectly fine story in which he checks in with Lois to get those answers. You can write a perfectly fine story in which he uses his journalistic skills (which are just as good as hers, and probably better because he's, well, Superman) and figure it out himself. It's just a matter of preference, which each of us has already stated.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I think the idea is that by simply talking things through with someone, including someone who may be similarly inexperienced, one might be able to work through a tough issue together. Neither Lois nor Clark would have all the answers in your child-rearing example, but by pooling their different ideas and perspectives, they might come close to figuring out an ideal course of action. Besides, we're not discussing the idea that Superman will be consulting with Lois on matters she does not understand perhaps more clearly than he does. He's an alien superhero who is being challenged by a complex ethical/philosophical issue that likely involves navigating public opinion and the government/military. As a human and as a a molder of public opinion with ties to the government/military, Lois is exactly the North Star that Superman should seek out.
    I do agree there are certain things she would be more familiar with, but if it's about things like the "human condition" or whatever you want to call it, I would likely disagree. He's an "alien superhero," but he's got the insight and temperament of an "average joe," too. He didn't arrive on Earth yesterday, he's lived on in and observed it with keen eyes, ears, and mental clarity for 27+ years, and I'd say he's even thought about things like what it means to be human more than most.

    If you want to say Superman is the type of guy who believes the more data points the better, then I'll go along with a story in which he shops around for info every chance he gets.

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