View Poll Results: Would you read an all female Avengers Book?

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  • No, My Avengers must include the main 4 Bros (Cap, Hulk, Iron, Thor)

    5 4.55%
  • Yes, I like girls.

    68 61.82%
  • No, the Avenger women are fairly uninteresting and not powerful.

    13 11.82%
  • Unsure, it would depend on the roster.

    33 30.00%
  • No, I do not like girls.

    4 3.64%
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  1. #211
    Senior Member Silvermoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Show View Post
    What's the point of the all female X-Men again?
    I am not sure if you're joking but I personally don't know the answer to that. It's a cool idea to show off the female X-men but I don't think segregation is the point of the series.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Mutant Mind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Show View Post
    What's the point of the all female X-Men again?
    The point is, there is no specific point. An X-Team comprised of females only looks believable because the entire franchise is built upon these women (plus Jean, but she's dead or w/e).
    Plus, some of the best X-teams were mostly female - going back to the original New Mutants - to the recent run of X-Men by Wood.
    They could never launch "Avengers #1" with just females.

  3. #213
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyinblue View Post
    That used to bother me. Admittedly, it doesn't as much anymore. It was pointed out that the Illuminati isn't necessarily supposed to be portrayed as a good thing. It's supposed to be representative of an inappropriate balance of power. Given that, it works. If that truly is the attitude of Marvel, I'd wonder where all of these female-centric titles are coming from.
    It's telling that the potential adversary this new Illuminati is facing bears the face of a woman, and that terrifies the men. While I, at present, just can't get into Hickman's NA, I'm sure that in the long run his critique of the "most powerful" characters in the 616 all being guys will bear fruit.
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  4. #214
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyinblue View Post
    The writers may not have done the best job of handling the Avengers' women in the past decade or so, but I don't think Steve Rogers has ever really shown signs of being a raging misogynist. There are so, so, so many ways to develop tension in a plot... but relying on one that tears down the nature of one character (or set of characters) in order to lift up another set of character is something I can rarely get behind. Also, from the marketing standpoint making the book blatantly man-hating can be very alienating to a lot of readers.


    Here's a challenge: name enough instances where Steve (or the Avengers leadership) has treated the female Avengers differently specifically BECAUSE of their gender to establish a trend.

    It's not exactly a trend, but during the crisis period from Civil War to now, not one female Avenger was the Director of Shield, (except Natasha for the short duration of Maria Hills unconsciousness), or it's replacement. Both Janet and Carol were given subservient roles in the CW and Initiative, and we're generally overruled by male characters. The male characters like Ares and Hank Pym came up with the ideas to defeat villains, and females were left roles of heroic action, only. All the lectures were made by male characters and female characters listened intently and were impressed. Females were patronised.




    Quote Originally Posted by lilyinblue View Post
    Gender issues and feminism in comics is something that is very important to me. But, it's always such a delicate thing. Creating issues where they don't actually exist sometimes is actually more harmful than helpful.


    ... and if the girls are just doing what the guys do... why exactly do we assume they'd be doing it with less gusto?

    It's more an opinion and view of action scenes that male characters have the most dynamic portrayals and the most iconic moments, while females are derivative of male characters. KSD gave a more empowered team of Female marines in the flashback to WW11 in the Captain Marvel series, than any Avengers team of Females.


    Quote Originally Posted by lilyinblue View Post


    That used to bother me. Admittedly, it doesn't as much anymore. It was pointed out that the Illuminati isn't necessarily supposed to be portrayed as a good thing. It's supposed to be representative of an inappropriate balance of power. Given that, it works. If that truly is the attitude of Marvel, I'd wonder where all of these female-centric titles are coming from.

    I just looked at NA #2 at the Illuminati members Reed was facing, and it suddenly struck me, that all those male characters seated had existed before the Silver Age. Including Stark who was a weapons maker. The only one who wasn't yet a super powered person was Reed Richards, while everyone else was existant as male authority figures, while no female figures had anything close to this esteem pre Silver Age.
    Last edited by jackolover; 01-17-2013 at 05:18 AM.
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  5. #215
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Mind View Post
    The point is, there is no specific point. An X-Team comprised of females only looks believable because the entire franchise is built upon these women (plus Jean, but she's dead or w/e).
    Plus, some of the best X-teams were mostly female - going back to the original New Mutants - to the recent run of X-Men by Wood.
    They could never launch "Avengers #1" with just females.
    Well, let's not forget that Lady Liberators appeared in Avengers. If I'm not mistaken they came first Birds of Prey.
    I never imagined that a title like Fearless Defenders would come out, but left. It's never overkill.

  6. #216
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Mind View Post
    The point is, there is no specific point. An X-Team comprised of females only looks believable because the entire franchise is built upon these women (plus Jean, but she's dead or w/e).
    Plus, some of the best X-teams were mostly female - going back to the original New Mutants - to the recent run of X-Men by Wood.
    They could never launch "Avengers #1" with just females.
    And yet Marvel is about to launch Fearless Defenders whose characters have no ties.
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  7. #217
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Guess people don't recall very early in Stern's run, when the line-up of the Avengers consisted of Wasp, Captain Marvel (Monica Rembeau), She-Hulk, the Scarlet Witch, Captain America and Starfox, and that there was even a couple of issues where Cap didn't show up and was replaced by Tigra. That's kinda foward thinking for a title in the eighties.

    Peace

  8. #218
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Guess people don't recall very early in Stern's run, when the line-up of the Avengers consisted of Wasp, Captain Marvel (Monica Rembeau), She-Hulk, the Scarlet Witch, Captain America and Starfox, and that there was even a couple of issues where Cap didn't show up and was replaced by Tigra. That's kinda foward thinking for a title in the eighties.

    Peace
    Not terribly shocking that this was the Avengers line up Starfox decided to join, was it.

  9. #219
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Guess people don't recall very early in Stern's run, when the line-up of the Avengers consisted of Wasp, Captain Marvel (Monica Rembeau), She-Hulk, the Scarlet Witch, Captain America and Starfox, and that there was even a couple of issues where Cap didn't show up and was replaced by Tigra. That's kinda foward thinking for a title in the eighties.

    Peace
    Despite what some may think, the history of the Avengers goes back farther than 2004.
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  10. #220
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    And yet Marvel is about to launch Fearless Defenders whose characters have no ties.
    Not entirely true. Of the known cast, so far only Misty Knight has "no ties" to the concept (as it stands now).
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  11. #221
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not terribly shocking that this was the Avengers line up Starfox decided to join, was it.
    In all fairness, there were a couple more guys around when he joined, but, yes, I'm sure he enjoyed that line-up more than most.

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  12. #222
    Senior Member Mutant Mind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caio View Post
    Well, let's not forget that Lady Liberators appeared in Avengers. If I'm not mistaken they came first Birds of Prey.
    I never imagined that a title like Fearless Defenders would come out, but left. It's never overkill.
    Ironic, since the original Lady Liberators were actually mind-controlled.

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    And yet Marvel is about to launch Fearless Defenders whose characters have no ties.
    What does this have to do with Avengers females? So far, Valkyrie's the only Avenger on the team, and she's not exactly one of their most memorable members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Guess people don't recall very early in Stern's run, when the line-up of the Avengers consisted of Wasp, Captain Marvel (Monica Rembeau), She-Hulk, the Scarlet Witch, Captain America and Starfox, and that there was even a couple of issues where Cap didn't show up and was replaced by Tigra. That's kinda foward thinking for a title in the eighties.

    Peace
    I even gave examples of good female-heavy Avengers runs in the past, that's not the point. I'm saying that having an all-female Avengers, today, wouldn't be as believable as an all X-Women one, because they're not as important to their own franchise.

  13. #223
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    In all fairness, there were a couple more guys around when he joined, but, yes, I'm sure he enjoyed that line-up more than most.

    Peace
    The interesting thing for me is that I was an Avengers reader at that point (my favorite all time run actually) and I never even noticed that it had an 80% or whatever female line up at any point. It just didn't register.

    Which I think is ideally how it should be. We shouldn't have to think about or be pre-occupied with the fact that a team is mostly female or mostly minority or whatever. Ideally it should all just feel "normal."

    But I guess Stern was so good at being ahead of his time, people just didn't consciously notice. It's almost a shame.

  14. #224
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant Mind View Post
    Ironic, since the original Lady Liberators were actually mind-controlled.



    What does this have to do with Avengers females? So far, Valkyrie's the only Avenger on the team, and she's not exactly one of their most memorable members.



    I even gave examples of good female-heavy Avengers runs in the past, that's not the point. I'm saying that having an all-female Avengers, today, wouldn't be as believable as an all X-Women one, because they're not as important to their own franchise.
    What has that got to do with giving them a title? Not all of the X-Women hold importance to their teams. Wasp, Carol, Monica, Black Widow, and Wanda certainly are important members of the Avengers history.
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  15. #225
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The interesting thing for me is that I was an Avengers reader at that point (my favorite all time run actually) and I never even noticed that it had an 80% or whatever female line up at any point. It just didn't register.

    Which I think is ideally how it should be. We shouldn't have to think about or be pre-occupied with the fact that a team is mostly female or mostly minority or whatever. Ideally it should all just feel "normal."

    But I guess Stern was so good at being ahead of his time, people just didn't consciously notice. It's almost a shame.
    IMHO, Stern was very organic in his membership replacements. He used a six member limit, which, IMO, is kinda low for a team like Avengers, and yet, in the space of 5 years, so many heroes, new and old, came and went through the pages of Avengers, and the changes never felt forced. They were a natural part of the story. Plus, he worked really well with the members that had other things going in other titles. Cap, Thor, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Namor, all had legitmate reasons for not being around, and that was always explained within the stories. The rejoining of the Vison and the Scarlet Witch was another natural inclusion, as was their exclusion. Stern's is, IMHO, without a doubt the best Avengers run ever. The man had an excellent grasp of the characters.

    Peace

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