Batman and Robin #16 Preview/Discussion

[Desaad]

Damain is thoroughly trained in the art of war and in different fighting styles. He has fought alongside his father and knows how he fights. Plus Damian had the presnece of mind to figure out how to get away. I would expect him to have the ability to identify the appearance and style of his father/mentor.

Remember when the story that INTRODUCED Damian had him identify Bruce Wayne as Batman from out of a crowd of people, with just a few seconds of studying some video, knowing only that his father was Batman?

With him poisoned by the Joker toxin I suppose there would be an explanation for anything 'off' about his movement, but facial features and the details of his costume and what not -- Damian is a polymath, a trained polymath. Stretches credibility just a titch.

[thwhtGuardian]

"Batman's" facial features were contorted into a Joker grin though, as one would expect, and Damian himself was under the influence of the Joker, the ability to flee doesn't really prove that he was in a clear presence of mind.

I don't really see much of a stretch here given the circumstances, if this were just a random encounter with no toxin involved then sure Damian should be able to tell the difference. But all things considered in this issue? His reactions were spot on.

[nosocialize100]

They did everything possible, he looked like Batman and he fought like Batman, what more was needed? For Damian to take a DNA sample mid-fight?.

How about question if this was a trick JUST ONCE.

[thwhtGuardian]

How about question if this was a trick JUST ONCE.

Why?

It's not as if this was just some random dude in a baggy Halloween costume, he looked just like Batman and he was obviously highly trained and the whole set up fell in line with the theme of Joker's plan. There was no reason for Damian to doubt what was going on.

As readers we knew it was likely a trick, but that's because we have more knowledge than the characters in the book. If the trick was the focus of the book that would indeed be a fault as it wouldn't be a shocking twist; but the switch wasn't the focus, the focus was Damian and his emotional reaction to having to face his father in a do or die situation.

[nosocialize100]

Why?

It's not as if this was just some random dude in a baggy Halloween costume, he looked just like Batman and he was obviously highly trained and the whole set up fell in line with the theme of Joker's plan. There was no reason for Damian to doubt what was going on.

As readers we knew it was likely a trick, but that's because we have more knowledge than the characters in the book. If the trick was the focus of the book that would indeed be a fault as it wouldn't be a shocking twist; but the switch wasn't the focus, the focus was Damian and his emotional reaction to having to face his father in a do or die situation.

Only because I think that's what any normal person would do.

[Conway]

This title is the best part of DotF. Yes we all knew it wasn't really Batman, but Damian was under the influence of Joker Toxin, and the boy doesn't have the experience that the others do at fighting it. It was nice to see that Joker really did expect the boy to kill. Maybe he does know a little bit about the Gremlin. I thought he would like the evil little brat more though.

[thwhtGuardian]

Only because I think that's what any normal person would do.

I don't think a normal person would, they'd be too busy fending off the attack to worry about if he was really who he was said to be.

[cosmicjoke]

Man, Tomasi writes the Joker so much better than Snyder. I was really giving Snyder the benefit of the doubt regarding his Joker leading up to this arc, having liked the way he wrote him in that one issue of Tec., when he's still in Arkham. But I've been disappointed overall with his portrayal of the Joker here. I can admit when I'm wrong, and I'm afraid I was wrong on this one.

What Tomasi is doing right is in capturing the unsettling madness of the Joker, whereas, strangely, Snyder's Joker seems to be feigning insanity, if that makes any sense. As though he's pretending to enjoy this lack of control and chaos, but then grows very anxious and seemingly worried when things start to go wrong. Like when Batman emerges from the fiery blaze in issue 14 of "Batman", or in this latest issue, when he bursts into Arkham's office and the Joker starts panicking slightly and demanding and crying for those bars to drop.

Bizarrely, I think Tony Daniel even wrote a better Joker at this juncture.

Snyder's Joker, for all he's trying to be scary, doesn't strike me as scary at all, or unsettling at all. The Joker in "The Killing Joke" seemed insane to me. The Joker in "All-Star Batman and Robin" seemed insane to me. The Joker in "Arkham Asylum: ASHOSE" seemed insane to me. And I was truly, truly rattled by him in those comics. In Snyder's Batman, I'm anything but.

When I think of the Joker, I think of someone who, even when his plans go wrong, even if he's shocked by it for a moment, he's not going to act scared, or upset, or make a thing of it. He's going to just go "Oh well." And laugh manically as Batman beats the shit out of him. That's what makes the Joker so scary. He doesn't CARE. And that seems to be a vital part of the character that Snyder is missing. It's scary because, as was so wonderfully depicted in "The Dark Knight", it makes the Joker someone you can't, really beat. You can't beat someone who doesn't want anything. Who you can't bribe or coax or influence in any way. Snyder's Batman seems strangely grounded and normal, despite his grotesque actions. He doesn't seem psychotic at all. He isn't creepy, or unpredictable.

Tomasi's Joker, on the other hand, does a much better job of capturing and portraying those elements of the character. Like when Damian escapes, and the Joker doesn't expect it, but then he just laughs, tells Robin "Well played", and continues the chase. Or when Damian stabs him in the foot with a screw driver from his own tool belt, and again, the Joker just laughs and asks "Is that all you've got?". The Joker should never be truly, truly invested in anything. If one plan doesn't work, he should just shrug it off and move on to the next one. Again, that's what makes him scary. That, and the contrasting dedication he has to his philosophy, which is that nothing has any meaning, and thus, anything goes. On top of all of this, Tomasi just writes the Joker better in terms of voice. Snyder's Joker just doesn't sound like the Joker to me. He doesn't come across as particularly intelligent under Snyder's pen, which just isn't right, since the Joker is wickedly intelligent. He should be smooth, and witty, and cuttingly cruel in his remarks, mainly through the perceptiveness of them, to the truth behind his words. Snyder's Joker just seems to be talking a lot of bullshit and not being very funny with it. At least Tomasi's Joker sounds like he actually believes in what he's saying, and there's some wit behind it.

I don't know. I've just been disappointed with Snyder's Joker, and I've enjoyed Tomasi's much more.

Ah, well. Hopefully it won't be too long before we get to see the Joker as the main villain of a story under a writer who has a better grasp of what the character should be.

All in my opinion, of course.

[Bookem Danno]

The art had an exciting flow but the story was not as good. I loved the opening line about 'cereal fighting milk' but then nothing impressed me more than that. (The 'pedicure' line was pretty good.) Joker was okay; however, Robin was not and he was 1/2 the book so that was a problem. The far, far, too chatty, midget assassin's fighting (with words first, flashfists after) was embarrassing display. If it was a (drugged)Batman, the hands on fight shouldn't have lasted that long and if it was not a (drugged)Batman, the hands on fight should not have lasted that long. And he really should have had means, resources, or insight not to be fooled by the "Batfaux" all the way to this point.



I was distracted by the unclear depth of the aquariam given the Batfaux throws the kid up either while swimming or standing. But that is trivial nitpick compared to the dénouement that just confused it all. Was that Alfred as Batfaux? Had to read Joker's 'Batman for a Day' a couple times to convince myself he was a poorlly timed reply to two panels before. Alfred?? Then the decompressing nutjob rolls up his sleeves and gets a fishhook was likely significant but felt pointless and arbitrary in the context of this issue. Then oddly revived Robin feels oddly subservient to tag along thru some odd caveway. I read BG#16 first so the grenade bit and the mystery serving tray was more repetitive than novel elements.