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  1. #61
    Member Sir_i4got's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitt55 View Post
    No, it's a given that the character from issues #0 through #40 travelled from the Extreme universe to the Supremacy, and from there to the Awesome universe. We saw these events happen.
    Your showing a complete lack of grasping the revision concept as laid out in this story.
    And like i said in a previous post, Moore, while completly revamping everything about the book and yes being free to ignore the previous forty-odd issues, was still respectful enough to the readership and/or medium to NOT simply dump everything that came before in the trash and start from complete scratch. As had happened with every previous revision.

    The book DOES show one Supremes' arc from first appearance to present day.
    The book DOES NOT show this Supreme going through more than one revision.
    Thats published cannon.
    I was wanting to get into supreme, Never read anything of his before but your insane fanboy nonsense has turned me completely off the idea of reading anything to do with him.

  2. #62
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Which issues was he quoting scripture and viewing himself as an avenging angel? It's also worth noting that viewing yourself as a god and viewing yourself as an agent of the Judeo-Christian God isn't the same thing. It's actually pretty different.

    And yeah, they'd be two different versions of Spidey, the Keown version and the Mantlo version. Just like Morrison's version of Batman is his and Miller's is his.

    A Spidey written by Keown would be different from one written by Mantlo yes but it would still be THE SAME character.
    To suggest that every time a new person writes a given character for a given company that the character, and by extension all the other characters in the story along with that story's entire universe/history/continuity, somehow becomes a seperate,individual thing from every other writters' stories' characters/histories/continuities when nothing of the sort has been established is absolutly rediculous!
    We KNOW that theres a bunch of characters in the, say, Marvel Universe. All co-existing within a self-contained continuity. It doesnt matter one bit who writes what book, they are still writting for the VERY SAME characters the last guy wrote for.


    As for the other stuff I've already admitted that the Supreme written by Giffen in Legend Of came accross light years ahead of any previous evengelical/cleansing leanings the character may have displayed, but that such leanings werent wholly inconsistant. The dying and being resurected seven times and the religious leanings of the young Ethan Crane arent aspects specific to the Giffen material.
    The evangelical rhetoric is though.

  3. #63
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_i4got View Post
    I was wanting to get into supreme, Never read anything of his before but your insane fanboy nonsense has turned me completely off the idea of reading anything to do with him.
    Well then continue to read Tiny Titan Adventures or whatever in order to avoid anything too heady for you.



    Erik I'm going to have to get back to tommorrow, it got late on me, but you keep on diggin' in the meantime.HA!

    I came into this with a legitimate inconsistency I wanted clearification on.Erik, please dont let this degenerate into the usual John Byrne, cock fight, name calling session. I honestly appreciate your and others willingness to engage over this.
    Last edited by pitt55; 03-03-2013 at 07:58 AM.

  4. #64
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Larsen View Post
    Moore's Supreme was clearly a new version of the character. He spoke differently, acted differently, dressed differently and even made remarks indicating things were amiss "With my memory gaps..." "'micro-sight' how long have I had micro-sight?" being a couple examples. The original Supreme says, "You probably popped into being just a few weeks back!" and other lines throughout Alan's first issue indicate that THIS Supreme is an altogether NEW Supreme and that he was being delivered to a new revised reality.

    So if THIS is a NEW Supreme...what happened to the old one?

    It was my conjecture that when he arrived in the Supremacy that the others locked him up and threw away the key, never to be mentioned again. He was a bad seed and he was being hidden from Ethan Crane in particular. How long does a revision take? Days? Weeks? Months? Who knows?

    It is my supposition that there was time for Rob's Supreme to blink out and Alan's to blink in and make his way home. And since my story saw print--and is canon--whether you agree or disagree with it--that's what happened.
    I agree with it, I have no choice. Just like I have no choice but to agree with the rest of the published cannon. I'm just trying to shoehorn in logical consistancy between the two.

    What your saying here is that on pg. 7 of Supreme 41 Supreme flies through the portal leading to the Supremacy and instantly becomes such a raging jerk that they have to lock him up and we dont see him again until he gets released in Supreme 64. And that we first meet the Moore Supreme on the following page.

    Now how can this be the case when the book clearly shows us the one Supreme travel through the portal leading to the Supremacy, take his little tour of the place, and then travel through another portal leading to the Awesome-verse to BECOME the next revised version of Supreme? Hell, this proccess is even illustrated as happening in his thoughts; we see complete chunks of memory relating to the new [-ly created] continuity surface and assert themselves as history.


    This is what it boils down to and where things go "wrong" and I'm quoting myself from above because I feel that this just isnt coming accross.
    Read this please, slowly. THINK about what it's saying as you read it-


    "The one revision we DID see in the actual narrative was the one that DIDN'T happen the way EVERY PRECEEDING ONE happened; i.e. a given continuity/Supreme being replaced by a newly created one. There was no new Supreme created THIS TIME meaning there's no old Supreme to be replaced."

  5. #65
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Larsen View Post
    I did. And you're wrong. In Supreme #41 the Silver Age Supreme points to the sky to single out "Grim 'eighties Supreme" --how could there be a grim '80s Supreme if the last revision was 30 years ago and Supreme #41 was published in 1996? Silver Age Supreme was referencing when HE popped into the Supremacy when he mentioned "Almost thirty years ago" NOT 30 years since the last revision. You don't read the material as carefully as you claim to and you certainly don't seem to understand what it is you're reading.
    Your right. He meant it had been almost thirty years since HE had gotten there.
    I'm able to admit when I'M wrong.
    And having a Supreme from the eighties has no bearing on anything; there are supremes from the future.

  6. #66
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitt55 View Post
    As for the other stuff I've already admitted that the Supreme written by Giffen in Legend Of came accross light years ahead of any previous evengelical/cleansing leanings the character may have displayed, but that such leanings werent wholly inconsistant. The dying and being resurected seven times and the religious leanings of the young Ethan Crane arent aspects specific to the Giffen material.
    The evangelical rhetoric is though.
    In which issues? I'm going to dig out my old Supreme comics and I want to know which ones to read.

  7. #67
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Larsen View Post
    No, YOU don't get it. You're the problem. Alan wrote his story to provide wiggle room for a subsequent writer to say than Ethan Crane was not the same guy who appeared in previous issues of Supreme. He did that purposefully. He did that to essentially say, "if I got anything wrong--THIS is why--it's a different guy who THINKS he's the same guy just like all of these other Supremes thought THEY were the original Supremes up until they popped into the Supremacy."

    That was the whole POINT--and you missed it.
    All this is very true. The Alan Moore Ethan Crane is a completly seperate guy from the incarnation of Supreme that preceeded him.
    But what YOU seem to have missed is that IT'S THE SAME BODY.

    When this PARTICULAR revision happens Supreme ISNT automatically relegated to the Supremacy and replaced by a double as had been the case up to that point. As the rules of the revisions, established by the narrative, dictate SHOULD have happened.

    In fact, "You are the first Supreme ever to find this place BEFORE your true life commences" reinforces the uniqueness of the situation and indicates exactly WHY we ARE seeing this revision and why we HAVENT seen any of the others.
    Last edited by pitt55; 03-04-2013 at 05:02 AM.

  8. #68
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitt55 View Post
    No, it's a given that the character from issues #0 through #40 travelled from the Extreme universe to the Supremacy, and from there to the Awesome universe. We saw these events happen.
    Your showing a complete lack of grasping the revision concept as laid out in this story.
    And like i said in a previous post, Moore, while completly revamping everything about the book and yes being free to ignore the previous forty-odd issues, was still respectful enough to the readership and/or medium to NOT simply dump everything that came before in the trash and start from complete scratch. As had happened with every previous revision.

    The book DOES show one Supremes' arc from first appearance to present day.
    The book DOES NOT show this Supreme going through more than one revision.
    Thats published cannon.
    Of course we only see one revision. But it's of the Mean Supreme becoming the Moore Supreme and, at which point, the Mean Supreme enters the Supremacy for Larsen to use. They're not the same character. Moore wrote a new Supreme.

  9. #69
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitt55 View Post
    All this is very true. The Alan Moore Ethan Crane is a completly seperate guy from the incarnation of Supreme that preceeded him.
    But what YOU seem to have missed is that IT'S THE SAME BODY.

    When this PARTICULAR revision happens Supreme ISNT automatically relegated to the Supremacy and replaced by a double as had been the case up to that point. As the rules of the revisions, established by the narrative, dictate SHOULD have happened.

    In fact, "You are the first Supreme ever to find this place BEFORE your true life commences" reinforces the uniqueness of the situation and indicates exactly why we ARE seeing this revision actually happening and why we HAVENT seen any of the others.
    So we're back to a question of bodies then? If that is the case, then there shouldn't be the Golden Age/Original Supreme in the Supremacy or any of the Supremium Variants either, and yet there clearly are.

  10. #70
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    In which issues? I'm going to dig out my old Supreme comics and I want to know which ones to read.
    Anything to do with his [original] origin basically.

    Here's a definitive chronological reading order.
    This isnt a chronology of the character just of the reading order and it leaves out non-relevant outside guest appearances, some cannon like the bloodstrike cameo, some not cannon like Marvel's Gladiator/Supreme one shot.



    Annual 1- Second story
    Annual 1- First story.
    Youngblood 3
    1
    Supreme:Glory Days 1-2
    2-18 / New pgs. from Supreme Madness TPB
    19-22
    Legend of Supreme 1-3
    Bloodwulf Summer Special 1
    23
    Extreme Sacrifice 2
    24-29
    Prophet Annual 1 / Glory 5 / Brigade 22
    30-31
    0
    32-34
    Extreme Destroyer Prologue 1
    Maximage 2
    New Man 1
    Youngblood 4
    Glory 9
    Knightstrike 1
    35-40 / Kid Supreme 1-3
    Lady Supreme 1-2 > Asylum 10
    41 / Asylum 9
    42-52b
    Judgement Day-Sourcebook
    Judgement Day-Alpha - Supreme 53 between pgs. 29 and 30
    Judgement Day-Omega + 3
    54 up.
    Last edited by pitt55; 03-04-2013 at 05:09 AM.

  11. #71
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    So we're back to a question of bodies then? If that is the case, then there shouldn't be the Golden Age/Original Supreme in the Supremacy or any of the Supremium Variants either, and yet there clearly are.
    Please explain this.
    What does this mean?

    Why in the world WOULDNT there be all those doubles in the Supremacy?
    This makes no sense when the story clearly spells out the mechanism of the revisions.
    It's really not all that complicated either.
    There IS no question of bodies until the Mean Supreme shows up.

  12. #72
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitt55 View Post
    Please explain this.
    What does this mean?

    Why in the world WOULDNT there be all those doubles in the Supremacy?
    This makes no sense when the story clearly spells out the mechanism of the revisions.
    It's really not all that complicated either.
    There IS no question of bodies until the Mean Supreme shows up.
    The problem is you're misunderstanding the mechanism of revision and what happened in the story. The Mean Supreme becomes, once Moore takes over, just another variant, revised away like Lionhead Supreme and Golden Age/Original Supreme and all the rest to make way for the new Supreme. The Supreme we see at the beginning of #41 is a new guy with a new history and new personality. He never slaughtered Bloodstrike or lost his powers and went mad or any of that stuff anymore than the Mean Supreme fought Emerpus or Televillain and saved Judy Jordan by placing her consciousness into a Suprematon body.

    Oh, and the Supreme for Glory Days is hardly the religious zealot that Giffen wrote. Is the rest of your list going to be like that?

  13. #73
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Ok if the Supreme we see at the begining of #41 is a new guy than show me where and when you think THAT revision took place.

  14. #74
    Junior Member pitt55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Oh, and the Supreme for Glory Days is hardly the religious zealot that Giffen wrote. Is the rest of your list going to be like that?
    Um, thats what I've been saying ?
    That yes, the character written by Giffen has over the top religious zealot-ness that is unique to the Giffen material.
    Still doesnt make him an Alternate Supreme. He was just written differently.

    And it's a list. It cant be "like" anything. It simply IS.
    Are you drunk or somethin'?

  15. #75
    Senior Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    This is part of the whole metahysical fourth wall thing. All these characters in Supreme are characters in a comicbook (as opposed to say Superman, which is treated as the real world in context) The revision happens (in universe) because and when Moore revises it (in reality). We dont see the transition because Moore didnt write it and so its never shown to happen in universe. Nevertheless, the "Mean Supreme" and Ethan Crane are seperate characters and the Mean Supreme entered the Supremecy when Moore introduced his new continuity.

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