Avengers Arena: News and Speculation

[crimsonspider89]

Yeah, see the acting of Arena is perfect and hive mind still going on so no discussion on the book can be had. Got it.

Out again.

[Majin Gojira]

I'll address whatever I like, thank you very much.

Your choice.

Your desperate need to disparage and throw shade at the title since before it's launch, jumping on to every comment in virtually every thread just goes to show how well crafted and successful this book is; that it engenders such a visceral and violent reaction within you that you feel the need to try and tear it down at every single turn means that the pitch has achieved it's goal and worked magnificently. It couldn't be doing it's job better, right now.

Again, unless it addresses the arguments, it's an ad hominem. Accurate or not, it bears little on the arguments made. Yeah, I know I haven't behaved myself perfectly in discussing it, and gave into hysterics. Using that to dismiss solid arguments is just a bad thing to do, and I feel you are doing that.

It has people talking about it, week after week, month after month. A lot of the talk is positive, as demonstrated here again by various posters all bringing their thoughts and ideas together, even in the face of the relentless hate; be that out and out tirades on the evil of the book or faux-criticism declaiming that the writing can't possibly be worth anything because they don't like it and everyone else's opinions be damned.

It varies a lot as I have found and has been admitted in interviews from the main editors regarding Marvel's mail. Your claim of the positive talk is false. People are certainly talking and it is proving the adage that all publicity is good publicity, even going so far as to get people to buy Academy back issues and trades just to see what all the fuss was about. I earlier called the series on a conceptual level "dancing on the edge of a knife" and it seems to be doing that still in the world of reviews.

Also, people liking crap is not exactly an odd thing. I mean, look at the Transformers movies and the money they make vs. the Reviews.

It's a great book, with compelling characters who are having the best of themselves drawn out by the writer for all to see by facing death. There's no room for bluster or bravado, and we get to see a simple honesty within these characters. We saw it first with Hazmat because so much of her previous character was just bluster and surliness; to see that stripped away is a demonstration of what Murder World can and will do to these characters.

It seems you are more enamored with the idea of it and what it actually does and it could do those things and is indeed doing some of them. I don't think they're doing it well enough, but that's opinion indeed. No specifics to poke through, so I can't say anything more than that.

Then again, I don't think anyone wants to try and post several thousand word essays

They'll become something more than they've ever been, and yes, some of them will die.

But they'll die honest, as Mettle did.

If it wasn't for that one little line, false though it was, it would have been as good as you claim. Perhaps it's too high a standard to hold, but there's little niggling things about it which undermine it (IE: like it being used to boost a villain's rep being distasteful), but some of these are purely subjective. I won't go into details, as you have not. It's 1 AM where I am, so who needs those at that hour!

[Majin Gojira]

No, it's in no way legit. You can't even say what race is being 'victimized'.

All that matters is that he was non-white.

And since when was Jewish not a minority?

[Majin Gojira]

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I agree that Red Raven is a total redshirt, but Mettle was definitely not. Star Trek's red-shirts were flat, one-note characters who show up once, just so they can die in the episode. Mettle was NOT one of those. Mettle's death was more of the "Wow, I can't believe he killed that guy!" variety. Red-shirts are to show that a situation is dangerous, but the main characters will never die. Mettle's death was to show that there are no safe characters in the book. That is the difference between a red-shirt and Mettle.

Which is why I mentioned Tasha Yar in particular. She died as a red shirt even though she had her name in the opening credits. TVTropes wise, I guess that would make her a Mauve shirt, but the nature of the death and what it meant still kind of hold. I don't think the reasons really change it's nature, as Red Shirts often die to do that.

SF Debris does an excellent recap on the subject if you can stand a two part video of 20+ minutes. It goes into more eloquence than I could. And is funnier.

"Ad Hominem" has now replaced "strawman argument".

IIRC, I think Ad Hominem is a form of Strawman, actually.

[klinton]

All that matters is that he was non-white.

And since when was Jewish not a minority?

Since Wanda was declared too white to be a considered a minority over in Uncanny Avengers.

But no, all that matters is that he was BRIGHT RED. Anything else is seriously reaching way too hard and simply looking to be offended.

If Marvel were to turn to readers and say: look, we have this BRIGHT RED SKULL THING to appease minority readers....people would be offended at the audacity. Those same people cannot then turn around and claim racism when BRIGHT RED SKULL GUY is killed.

He represents BRIGHT RED people with no skin. The end.

[Mikey Brown]

IIRC, I think Ad Hominem is a form of Strawman, actually.

Woosh!!!! Right over your head....

[Majin Gojira]

Since Wanda was declared too white to be a considered a minority over in Uncanny Avengers.

Who in gods name did that?!

He represents BRIGHT RED people with no skin. The end.

That's silly.

Is Ben Grimm not white for being a 'monster'?

Is Beasts?

Is Colossus when he transforms no longer Russian?

It doesn't make logical sense. You don't just stop having a heritage and cultural background because your body changes. Think of puberty!

Okay, I'm just teasing with that one, but it really doesn't make sense to me. You're so focused on the surface without thinking about it. It's disconcerting.

[West]

Since Wanda was declared too white to be a considered a minority over in Uncanny Avengers.

The people saying that are kind of exaggerating or being dumb

But no, all that matters is that he was BRIGHT RED. Anything else is seriously reaching way too hard and simply looking to be offended.

If Marvel were to turn to readers and say: look, we have this BRIGHT RED SKULL THING to appease minority readers....people would be offended at the audacity. Those same people cannot then turn around and claim racism when BRIGHT RED SKULL GUY is killed.


He represents BRIGHT RED people with no skin. The end.

He was nonwhite before he got his powers. Thats like saying the Thing isn't Jewish because he's made of Rocks

[Majin Gojira]

Woosh!!!! Right over your head....

It's 1 A.M. over here? Can't expect 100% efficiency. Even though I usually get by on 30%

[West]

Yeah, see the acting of Arena is perfect and hive mind still going on so no discussion on the book can be had. Got it.

Out again.

It's quite jarring to see the total 180 on how Academy was loved here a few years ago their suddenly bash it. If I didn't know better I would just blame Zen Aku and call it a day

[gregyo]

Which is why I mentioned Tasha Yar in particular. She died as a red shirt even though she had her name in the opening credits. TVTropes wise, I guess that would make her a Mauve shirt, but the nature of the death and what it meant still kind of hold. I don't think the reasons really change it's nature, as Red Shirts often die to do that.

SF Debris does an excellent recap on the subject if you can stand a two part video of 20+ minutes. It goes into more eloquence than I could. And is funnier.



IIRC, I think Ad Hominem is a form of Strawman, actually.

The reason TOTALLY changes it. The reason Mettle is not a red-shirt is because he's a Sacrificial Lion. Red shirts are flat, one-note characters who only appear a few times, maximum. Mettle was a major character. You've simply confused your tropes.

As for Mettle fitting the "black guy dies first" mold, he only fits it in the most technical sense. He's not white, and he died first. He fits it as well as Steve from Chronicle fit, in that he really doesn't.

[gregyo]

Since Wanda was declared too white to be a considered a minority over in Uncanny Avengers.

But no, all that matters is that he was BRIGHT RED. Anything else is seriously reaching way too hard and simply looking to be offended.

If Marvel were to turn to readers and say: look, we have this BRIGHT RED SKULL THING to appease minority readers....people would be offended at the audacity. Those same people cannot then turn around and claim racism when BRIGHT RED SKULL GUY is killed.

He represents BRIGHT RED people with no skin. The end.

That's actually a fantastic point.

[Majin Gojira]

The reason TOTALLY changes it. The reason Mettle is not a red-shirt is because he's a Sacrificial Lion. Red shirts are flat, one-note characters who only appear a few times, maximum. Mettle was a major character. You've simply confused your tropes.

As for Mettle fitting the "black guy dies first" mold, he only fits it in the most technical sense. He's not white, and he died first. He fits it as well as Steve from Chronicle fit, in that he really doesn't.

Please check out the links and learn up on Tasha Yar. I want to see your take on how she died in comparison to Mettle. There's a reason I brought it up. I want to see if your opinion holds on that, or if we're defining our terms differently.

[klinton]

You're so focused on the surface without thinking about it.

Because....that's all it is. We're talking about skin colour.

No one, except people looking for a reason to be offended here, ever looked to the bright red skull guy as a role model for ethnic persons.

No one.

You all cannot have your cake and eat it too.

And yes, there were extensive debates about how UA was 'too white'. In fact, it still gets slammed as such.

So, yeah....you wonder why people lose patience with this whole crusade.

Bright red skinless 'ethnic mascots'. That's why.

[crimsonspider89]

Uh you do realize before he got his powers he was of darker skin right?

He lost his skin but still maintains the fact that he was of minority.

So.... yeah fits the trope of minority dying first.