Avengers Arena: News and Speculation

[Mikey Brown]

It's quite jarring to see the total 180 on how Academy was loved here a few years ago their suddenly bash it. If I didn't know better I would just blame Zen Aku and call it a day

I for one never got into Academy. I read the first 12 issues and was not impressed (Gage's run on X-Men:Legacy was even worse which surprised me because I've enjoyed his writing a lot in the past). I gave a few more issues a shot but it just wasn't for me. But that's fine because that's just my opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's (no matter how much some try to convince others......OH NO AD HOMINEM!!!!!).

[gregyo]

Please check out the links and learn up on Tasha Yar. I want to see your take on how she died in comparison to Mettle. There's a reason I brought it up. I want to see if your opinion holds on that, or if we're defining our terms differently.

I didn't watch the video, but I did google the character. She's not a red shirt, either. She was a cast member who was written out of the show because of real life actress issues.

Red shirts are created specifically to die, and no other reason. That's what a red shirt is. If you're using it any other way, you're using it wrong.

[gregyo]

Uh you do realize before he got his powers he was of darker skin right?

He lost his skin but still maintains the fact that he was of minority.

So.... yeah fits the trope of minority dying first.

Barely. Not even in the negative way, either.

[West]

Because....that's all it is. We're talking about skin colour.

No one, except people looking for a reason to be offended here, ever looked to the bright red skull guy as a role model for ethnic persons.

No one.

You all cannot have your cake and eat it too.

And yes, there were extensive debates about how UA was 'too white'. In fact, it still gets slammed as such.

So, yeah....you wonder why people lose patience with this whole crusade.

Bright red skinless 'ethnic mascots'. That's why.

He was human beforehand and belonged to an ethnic group you nit. Him having a metal skeleton that's red doesn't invalidate his race. At all.

And again stop using red herrings like a fandoms complaints about UA

[Majin Gojira]

Because....that's all it is. We're talking about skin colour.

No one, except people looking for a reason to be offended here, ever looked to the bright red skull guy as a role model for ethnic persons.

No one.

I just keep thinking of Payback and Brick House from the Dakotaverse/Milestone comics, among others. I can't really see the idea off "Morphed into nonhuman destroys racial background" thing hold up in light of what was done with them and other characters in those series.

Then again, I think everyone should read Milestone. I'm still going through it, but Icon is AMAZING!

And yes, there were extensive debates about how UA was 'too white'. In fact, it still gets slammed as such.

So, yeah....you wonder why people lose patience with this whole crusade.

Yeah, that can be disheartening. I don't see it here, but I can understand your skepticism and it's source very well.

Then again, I've seen people forget that Jubilee is Asian-American, so there's that.

[Majin Gojira]

I didn't watch the video, but I did google the character. She's not a red shirt, either. She was a cast member who was written out of the show because of real life actress issues.

Red shirts are created specifically to die, and no other reason. That's what a red shirt is. If you're using it any other way, you're using it wrong.

Seriously, watch the video and see how she died. Because A) it's funny, B) it's smart. How she died and how it was portrayed is the real importance here, IMO.

Please?

[West]

I for one never got into Academy. I read the first 12 issues and was not impressed (Gage's run on X-Men:Legacy was even worse which surprised me because I've enjoyed his writing a lot in the past). I gave a few more issues a shot but it just wasn't for me. But that's fine because that's just my opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone else's (no matter how much some try to convince others......OH NO AD HOMINEM!!!!!).

I'm not even referring to you. I mean everyone who feels like Arena is gods gift to earth and anyone who disagrees is wrong

[gregyo]

Seriously, watch the video and see how she died. Because A) it's funny, B) it's smart. How she died and how it was portrayed is the real importance here, IMO.

Please?

I don't have 20 minutes for something I don't really care about. I'm just telling you what a red shirt is. How someone dies and how it's portrayed is largely irrelevant. If they have been previously established, they're not a red shirt. Mettle was an established character. If he had died in Avengers Academy 1, he might have been a red shirt.

Maybe I'll watch the video later. I'm watching West Wing right now. =P

[Majin Gojira]

I don't have 20 minutes for something I don't really care about. I'm just telling you what a red shirt is. How someone dies and how it's portrayed is largely irrelevant. If they have been previously established, they're not a red shirt. Mettle was an established character. If he had died in Avengers Academy 1, he might have been a red shirt.

Maybe I'll watch the video later. I'm watching West Wing right now. =P

Watch it when you can. West Wing certainly should not be interrupted.

[Majin Gojira]

The best reasons I've seen for people liking it are all superficial and shallow.

Which is perfectly fine. I do that a lot.

But to really survive and hold weight, it is going to have to be more than that.

I just hope that people who read it eventually get to watch Battle Royale. Because: Oh, My, God. That movie is great.

Takeshi Kitano is slowly becoming my favorite . . . artist in Japanese live action. I've only seen 3 films with/by him, but I haven't disliked one yet.

[vampiric_cannibal]

I'll address whatever I like, thank you very much.

Your desperate need to disparage and throw shade at the title since before it's launch, jumping on to every comment in virtually every thread just goes to show how well crafted and successful this book is; that it engenders such a visceral and violent reaction within you that you feel the need to try and tear it down at every single turn means that the pitch has achieved it's goal and worked magnificently. It couldn't be doing it's job better, right now.

It has people talking about it, week after week, month after month. A lot of the talk is positive, as demonstrated here again by various posters all bringing their thoughts and ideas together, even in the face of the relentless hate; be that out and out tirades on the evil of the book or faux-criticism declaiming that the writing can't possibly be worth anything because they don't like it and everyone else's opinions be damned.

It's a great book, with compelling characters who are having the best of themselves drawn out by the writer for all to see by facing death. There's no room for bluster or bravado, and we get to see a simple honesty within these characters. We saw it first with Hazmat because so much of her previous character was just bluster and surliness; to see that stripped away is a demonstration of what Murder World can and will do to these characters.

They'll become something more than they've ever been, and yes, some of them will die.

But they'll die honest, as Mettle did.

Lady A, have I ever told you that you're badass?
That is the best post I have ever read. Passionate, thorough and a complete answer.

The best reasons I've seen for people liking it are all superficial and shallow.

Which is perfectly fine. I do that a lot.

But to really survive and hold weight, it is going to have to be more than that.

I just hope that people who read it eventually get to watch Battle Royale. Because: Oh, My, God. That movie is great.

Takeshi Kitano is slowly becoming my favorite . . . artist in Japanese live action. I've only seen 3 films with/by him, but I haven't disliked one yet.

I really want to see Battle Royale. Haven't seen it around though, which makes legal procurement hard. I have seen the manga at the library so I'll get that. I read more than I watch things these days, apart from LoL vods. Now school is back and my time and consumption is rather limited.

You said visual design was a huge thing. This book is stunningly drawn, laid out and coloured. Would you say liking it on those grounds is shallow?
The characters are endearing, their problem confounding and brutal. They look young and fresh, Hopeless' dialogue is close to genuine which happens rarely. It is character heavy. That is why it is loved. It plays hard and for keeps, which has turned many people off.

TV Tropes is far better at making readers more sophisticated than making writers more skilled, as too many webcomics and fanfics have shown. Mettle wasn't 'black dude dies first', it was 'Mettle dies because he couldn't live with the consequences of living'. In the urge to deconstruct we miss the greater beauty.

[Majin Gojira]

I really want to see Battle Royale. Haven't seen it around though, which makes legal procurement hard. I have seen the manga at the library so I'll get that. I read more than I watch things these days, apart from LoL vods. Now school is back and my time and consumption is rather limited.

Actually, thanks a little to the release and success of Hunger Games, the movie has finally been released state side almost a year ago (March 2012) on both Blu Ray and DVD.

The dub, however, is apparently atrocious.

You said visual design was a huge thing. This book is stunningly drawn, laid out and coloured. Would you say liking it on those grounds is shallow?

The art is indeed great. It's the one thing everyone can agree on, I think. Liking it only because of that is the one of the least shallow ways to do so. Though since it is a storytelling medium, it's sort of like going to a movie like Independence Day, Transformers or The Day After Tomorrow and watching it to appreciate the FX. Sure, you can do that and is a legitimate way to like it, but the FX don't counter the flaws those films.

Or a Harryhausen movie without the ham and cheese from the actors to back it up. And I love Harryhausen movies.

Given what this story is doing and it's style, stronger narrative is a must.

The characters are endearing,

Mixed bag, really. I found the very first line in #1 to be one of the most repellent lines I've ever seen, which is horrific for an opening line to be. There's a lot of little things which fans of the established ones can quibble about. They come off as neutral at bests. Given how few of them have had speaking parts so far, this could easily change.

The new ones, however, are pretty well made interesting or even likable.

And without his camp factor, Arcade just becomes dull in this thing.

I can't read his voice as Tim Curry anymore! I've been denied Tim Curry! Truly, the lack of Tim Curry is the greatest offense Arena has committed!

their problem confounding and brutal.

This is one of the reasons I say "go see Battle Royale" and see how it establishes the brutality of the game. And to be honest, at least for me, the confusion hinges more on meta-narrative aspects than anything else, such as "How is Arcade such an bad GM that he makes the GM's of Panam/The Hunger Games look like gods when half of their point is their incompetent aping of Roman-style systems?"

Then there's that thing from #3: 10 days go by and nothing happens? The ol' Boyscout in me is very disappointed and confused by how clean they all are, among a million other little nagging camping factoids of "Things that could have gone wrong in a survival scenario in very interesting ways" getting glossed over.

Sure, one or more could happen in the future, and I hope they do . . . but to jump the gun like that is disheartening.

And we could also get scenes of that time in the future, but it just makes me question "Why do that at all?" I fear Hopeless is playing favorites primarily with his own creations, and that's just bad form.

They look young and fresh, Hopeless' dialogue is close to genuine which happens rarely.

Again, a mixed bag. A lot of times, I'd agree. Most of the time in fact. However, that opening line combined with Apex's speech pattern really harm it. I can see what Apex's dialogue is going for (a "I've spent too much time on the internet" type of newspeak akin to the novel The Feed), but it doesn't quite click. This could very easily be a personal thing but "Want to see this" has to much grammatical correctness as slang to fly compared to a full slang "Wanna see this".

It is character heavy. That is why it is loved. It plays hard and for keeps, which has turned many people off.

Playing hard for shallow reasons is more the culprit from where I sit. It may be too early to judge, but at comparable lengths between the BR film and the Hunger Games novel, we had heavy use of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder to set up future symbolism and a focus on the strained relationship between the generations which eventually grew into some pretty darn good social commentary. The best "Gladiator" fiction has social commentary, otherwise the highest this thing an go id "Average".

It also kills poorly, just evidenced by the fact that it utterly telegraphed Mettle's death (that Flash Forward at the start did a lot of damage to any tensions it would build regarding harming either X-23 or Hazmat, which is what happens at the end of the issue when structurally, it shouldn't happen at all) and to even consider using the "Red Shirt" example as a way to have a dramatic death that 'has meaning' is utterly laughable.

I can see what he was trying for (the issue title "Worse Thing" and all), but there's a fine line between foreshadowing and telegraphing.

There's a few other flaws of note, but that's all I can recall offhand.

TV Tropes is far better at making readers more sophisticated than making writers more skilled,

. . . Barely. It more gives a psuedo-intellectual level to fiction which can be good as a starting point, but it doesn't hold a candle to actual training in narrative structure and storytelling. It works best as an amusement tool and collection of similarities.

It's the hipster of Narrative education.

I love TV Tropes, edit on there too, but I don't like seeing it overselled.

as too many webcomics and fanfics have shown. Mettle wasn't 'black dude dies first', it was 'Mettle dies because he couldn't live with the consequences of living'. In the urge to deconstruct we miss the greater beauty.

The problem was, it wasn't about him. It was primarily about

A) Hazmat's reaction to the death and how much his death hurt her. This is why the issue focused on her,

B) Establishing the high stakes involved in the series ("No one is safe!!!!") and establish Arcade's threat level as a villain.

What you describe comes in a distant third which, to me, is a massive mistake. If a character is set to die, they should at least get primary focus. All the best deaths in fiction do this. Then again, I think that death in fiction is like the bite of a venomous serpent: without buildup, it has no impact; without venom that lingers, it has no meaning. At least one or the other should happen. Because of the telegraphing, the buildup was botched for Mettle; and the venom has had time to subside, robbing it of much of the pathos it needed to succeed.

Furthermore, it overplays Arcade's threat so hard that the VR theory sprang up almost immediately. That alone is almost enough to harm its credibility narrative wise. In it's attempt to make Arcade a real threat, it convinced many readers that the entire scenario wasn't.

Or it could just be denial.

[Tiamatican]

I'll address whatever I like, thank you very much.

Your desperate need to disparage and throw shade at the title since before it's launch, jumping on to every comment in virtually every thread just goes to show how well crafted and successful this book is; that it engenders such a visceral and violent reaction within you that you feel the need to try and tear it down at every single turn means that the pitch has achieved it's goal and worked magnificently. It couldn't be doing it's job better, right now.

Yeah yeah, no such thing as bad publicity and all that. But the fact that there's a lot of people talking about it doesn't mean it's legitimately good. Unless you want to argue that Twilight is a masterpiece - after all, it had a whole lot of people talking about it, both positively and negatively. The idea that because something gets a reaction it's inherently good just annoys me. Especially the idea that a strong negative reaction is good. That's the sort of mindset that leads to trolls. I don't think Hopeless actually does want the strong negative reaction. I think he knew it would come, but I don't believe he looks at it as a point of pride. So I don't think the fact that people are angry proves the book is good.

It has people talking about it, week after week, month after month. A lot of the talk is positive, as demonstrated here again by various posters all bringing their thoughts and ideas together, even in the face of the relentless hate; be that out and out tirades on the evil of the book or faux-criticism declaiming that the writing can't possibly be worth anything because they don't like it and everyone else's opinions be damned.

It's not like getting people on the Internet to go on pointless, long-winded tirades is particularly difficult. I mean, we're all geeks on here. This sort of thing is what we do. Also, I'm always right, so the fact that I don't like the writing proves it's not good.

It's a great book, with compelling characters who are having the best of themselves drawn out by the writer for all to see by facing death. There's no room for bluster or bravado, and we get to see a simple honesty within these characters. We saw it first with Hazmat because so much of her previous character was just bluster and surliness; to see that stripped away is a demonstration of what Murder World can and will do to these characters.

According to the interviews. We've seen virtually none of that in the book itself. The first issue partially missed the point of Hazmat's character, and didn't give us any insight into any of the other characters. The second issue gave virtually no insight into anyone aside from Deathlocket, and presented the Braddock Academy kids as a bunch of assholes. The third issue gave virtually no insight into anyone except Cammi, with a bit of Darkhawk thrown in. And even he was pretty flat. The vast majority of the characters, so far, haven't gotten to do a damned thing. Three issues in, and Reptil's only line was when he was playing ping-pong with Laura before they got abducted. Nico and Chase, so far, may as well no even be there. Juston's big moment was having his Sentinel crushed around him. He's got 21 characters, and only a handful of them have gotten more than a handful of lines. We have yet to see anything drawn out of most of them.

I think Hopeless has chosen, perhaps, the worst way to introduce the series. Having the first issue focused on Hazmat: Fine. Fair enough. Minor quibbles aside, it was an effective way to do it. The second and third issues should've had the focus move around, so we can see how more of the characters are dealing with the situation, and how Hopeless will be writing them. Again, Reptil and Nico have both had a whopping one line each so far, and some of the others haven't fared much better. That's a mistake. All the flashbacks are drawing time away from what's happening now, and should've been saved for once we had more of a feel for the cast as a whole.

They'll become something more than they've ever been, and yes, some of them will die.

And the rest will survive until the next time a writer needs some teenage heroes to kill off to show how terrible a villain is. Because Marvel has apparently decided teen heroes are good only for killing off.

But they'll die honest, as Mettle did.

I disagree with his death being honest. It felt cheap to me.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I'll address whatever I like, thank you very much.

Your desperate need to disparage and throw shade at the title since before it's launch, jumping on to every comment in virtually every thread just goes to show how well crafted and successful this book is; that it engenders such a visceral and violent reaction within you that you feel the need to try and tear it down at every single turn means that the pitch has achieved it's goal and worked magnificently. It couldn't be doing it's job better, right now.

It has people talking about it, week after week, month after month. A lot of the talk is positive, as demonstrated here again by various posters all bringing their thoughts and ideas together, even in the face of the relentless hate; be that out and out tirades on the evil of the book or faux-criticism declaiming that the writing can't possibly be worth anything because they don't like it and everyone else's opinions be damned.

It's a great book, with compelling characters who are having the best of themselves drawn out by the writer for all to see by facing death. There's no room for bluster or bravado, and we get to see a simple honesty within these characters. We saw it first with Hazmat because so much of her previous character was just bluster and surliness; to see that stripped away is a demonstration of what Murder World can and will do to these characters.

They'll become something more than they've ever been, and yes, some of them will die.

But they'll die honest, as Mettle did.

Nice Post Lady_Alternate.

[HostilSpike]

In the spirit of moving the conversation away from talking about talking about the book...

I'm definitely in the 'it feels like ages since the last issue' camp, so I went back to check out:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...eview&id=14735

Really looking forward to the Runaway issue, finally getting some interaction between them and the AA kids.