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  1. #61
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    I didn't really like the change in Dick's story either.

    Being that Bat-books I read are Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, and Catwoman the only issue I had with the cross-over was Catwoman. I really felt like the story didn't need to be extended there.

  2. #62
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Oh, I read Batman, too. But I'm getting so sick of how Snyder seems so obsessed with MAJOR, OVERLY-EXTENDED CHARACTER ESTABLISHING ARCS at the expense of just good stories that I'm on the verge of dropping that book.
    (I use to love the Bat-franchise, but with the New 52 changing all the origins for Dick, Jason, and Tim, I don't feel any interest in them the way I use to. And Batman is becoming a pretty but bloated title as well.)
    I kind of like Snyder's go big or go home take on his Batman. I think more titles would benefit if they tried to do that with their characters. I get its not a hit with everyone, nothing is ever going to be, but i like that the dude tries to do the biggest and best Batman stories he can think of. I like seeing creators being ambitious, trying to tell the best stories they can rather then just putting something down to fill pages.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-05-2013 at 12:00 PM.

  3. #63
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I kind of like Snyder's go big or go home take on his Batman. I think more titles would benefit if they tried to do that with their characters. I get its not a hit with everyone, nothing is ever going to be, but i like that the dude tries to do the biggest and best Batman stories he can think of. I like seeing creators being ambitious, trying to tell the best stories they can rather then just putting something down to fill pages.
    The only problem with that approach is that the character's entire life isn't a friggin' opera. Big arcs are one thing, but they need to be used a little more sparingly. Some smaller stories should be dropped in between (and I don't just mean a throw away issue like #12). Have a few stories that are two-or-three issues in length, but start dropping the plot points then that will suddenly inflate into the next big arc.
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  4. #64
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    First prove you can be consistently good before attempting to be great.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I wonder if that's EVER going to be allowed to happen though by DC's stewardship.
    I have heard the idea that one of the things that bothered Barbara Gordon the most, after the events of TKJ aside from the obvious one of being unable to walk, was the fact that it was not personal and that she was targeted purely because of her relationship to Jim Gordon and the effect he wanted it to have on him, because of his relationship to Batman, with The Joker not even knowing at that time that she had ever been Batgirl. It would seem that she is not his primary focus on this occasion either, now he does know who she is, but it is still more about how what he does to her impacts on Batman than on her. I think her getting closure on TKJ would involve making him focus on her for herself as an adversary, as much as any other revenge she might take on him.
    Last edited by Bluebow; 02-05-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  6. #66
    Hater booyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    The only problem with that approach is that the character's entire life isn't a friggin' opera. Big arcs are one thing, but they need to be used a little more sparingly. Some smaller stories should be dropped in between (and I don't just mean a throw away issue like #12). Have a few stories that are two-or-three issues in length, but start dropping the plot points then that will suddenly inflate into the next big arc.
    Black Mirror did that really well, there were two shorter arcs in the middle of a big arc. I thought that worked pretty well.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Batman9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Oh, I read Batman, too. But I'm getting so sick of how Snyder seems so obsessed with MAJOR, OVERLY-EXTENDED CHARACTER ESTABLISHING ARCS at the expense of just good stories that I'm on the verge of dropping that book.
    (I use to love the Bat-franchise, but with the New 52 changing all the origins for Dick, Jason, and Tim, I don't feel any interest in them the way I use to. And Batman is becoming a pretty but bloated title as well.)
    Erm
    He's done two arcs
    1 of them is 11 issues, the other is 5. Not seeing the problem. Especially with the "overly-extended" thing
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  8. #68
    Hater booyah's Avatar
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    5 is a large arc. 11 was overkill.

  9. #69
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    I just read Batgirl #14-16 a couple of nights ago and liked it a lot. I've got a couple more of these DOTF tie-in's to read yet, but so far, this is definitely my favorite.

    Hmm, DC made the point that you didn't have to read the tie-in's in order to follow the main story in Batman, but the reverse does not seem to be true. I really don't see this as a big deal, because I would think the vast majority of readers are going to read the main bat-title as well.
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  10. #70
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    I have heard the idea that one of the things that bothered Barbara Gordon the most, after the events of TKJ aside from the obvious one of being unable to walk, was the fact that it was not personal and that she was targeted purely because of her relationship to Jim Gordon and the effect he wanted it to have on him, because of his relationship to Batman, with The Joker not even knowing at that time that she had ever been Batgirl. It would seem that she is not his primary focus on this occasion either, now he does know who she is, but it is still more about how what he does to her impacts on Batman than on her. I think her getting closure on TKJ would involve making him focus on her for herself as an adversary, as much as any other revenge she might take on him.
    I think I see where that can be achieved. With Batman it seems that Joker's focus is about making him believe there is no point to trying to instill order as well as pushing Batman over the brink of sanity, same as him. In Batgirl's DOTF tie-in issues it was more about getting Batgirl to give up her compassion and want to outright kill the Joker. So there is a difference in focus between the bat-characters right there, there just has to be a reason for a few issues in Batgirl for Joker to want to make her his primary focus over the other bat-family members for Batgirl to finally get that TKJ full closure she's been wanting and deserving for so very long now.
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  11. #71
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I think I see where that can be achieved. With Batman it seems that Joker's focus is about making him believe there is no point to trying to instill order as well as pushing Batman over the brink of sanity, same as him. In Batgirl's DOTF tie-in issues it was more about getting Batgirl to give up her compassion and want to outright kill the Joker. So there is a difference in focus between the bat-characters right there, there just has to be a reason for a few issues in Batgirl for Joker to want to make her his primary focus over the other bat-family members for Batgirl to finally get that TKJ full closure she's been wanting and deserving for so very long now.
    Perhaps the next time The Joker shows up when he knows that Batman is out of town with The Justice League or on Batman Inc business, thinking that he will have all the time that he needs to set up some elaborate plan completely unopposed and Barbara shows him the error of his ways in neglecting to take into consideration that there is still a Bat in Gotham City. Also I think it is her frustration that he is enjoying more than anything else, I don't think he believes yet that it is possible she could actually kill him or defeat him at all.
    Last edited by Bluebow; 02-05-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  12. #72
    Danger Doll in pink! Chickfighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    Perhaps the next time The Joker shows up when he knows that Batman is out of town with The Justice League or on Batman Inc business, thinking that he will have all the time that he needs to set up some elaborate plan completely unopposed and Barbara shows him the error of his ways in neglecting to take into consideration that there is still a Bat in Gotham City. Also I think it is her frustration that he is enjoying more than anything else, I don't think he believes yet that it is possible she could actually kill him or defeat him at all.
    I have to concur that for it to be THE memorable story in which Batgirl puts her Joker ghosts behind her it needs to be a story focused on her and not part of a tie-in to a big Batman arc. That's the problem with this sort of crossover event for me. If the real story is going to be in the Batman title then that means the all the other characters are just having Joker guest in their title. They seeming won't be the ones who ultimately get to deal with Joker as that will be left for Batman. As a result the stories for the other titles are apt to seem somewhat of a letdown to people who want to see their particular Bat character take the Joker down in their book which would seem only fair after he's in a whole arc of their book. This is different from the whole Night at Hooters crossover in that each character could have their own Talon to deal with, but in this Joker event there's only one Joker. So if the ultimate big finish is between Batman and the Joker then the other characters have all been relegated to second fiddle roles even in their own titles in a way.

  13. #73
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    . . . This is different from the whole Night at Hooters crossover in that each character could have their own Talon to deal with, but in this Joker event there's only one Joker.
    A Night at Hooters cross-over would have been a great follow-up to the Night of the Owls mess!





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  14. #74
    Danger Doll in pink! Chickfighter's Avatar
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    http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/g...12958#/d4ug2oi

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  15. #75
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    I just read Batgirl #14-16 a couple of nights ago and liked it a lot. I've got a couple more of these DOTF tie-in's to read yet, but so far, this is definitely my favorite.

    Hmm, DC made the point that you didn't have to read the tie-in's in order to follow the main story in Batman, but the reverse does not seem to be true. I really don't see this as a big deal, because I would think the vast majority of readers are going to read the main bat-title as well.
    It's not just a matter of the story ending in a book that some people might not usually pick up (and shouldn't feel obliged to anyway). Besides, It'll be easy enough to just read Batman #17 in a comic book shop and then it stick it back on the shelf.

    For me, the issue is that Babs doesn't get an end to her own story. She's been dealing with Joker for three issues on her own terms, but has to step aside for the final part of the story when Bruce comes in to do the 'heavy lifting'. Sure, no-one expected her to take down Joker when this story began, but it would have been nice to see her get a small victory of sorts before she was reduced to the role of a supporting character.

    I guess that's one of the reasons Gail added the otherwise dull James into the mix. His presence has really just been about giving Babs another antagonist, so as to create the idea that the Joker is actually just the 'supporting character' in this story, and Babs' real enemy is James. Unfortunately, as a villain, even as a character in general, James is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Grey paint.

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