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  1. #271
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Yet apparently Azzarello and Didio do see it as a selling point, and more as one of the reasons the book was not selling well previously. Load her up with a background not unlike something you would see on Jerry Springer, and she becomes more relatable.

    As to what she does after her birth - in this run so far she has not done anything that has not bee related back to that occasion. The entire story is driven by her alleged lineage and the extra-marital highjinks of the man identified as her father.

    Some [like slvn ] would probably argue that this is a more poignant statement now, since Diana is INSIDE the patriarachal system but actively operating against it, thus making her a more relatable character to those of us also born into this paradigm. She uses the power she inherited from her male parent to further the cause of female empowerment.

    I dont agree with that entirely. Super-powers are different to ones normal skills and abilities in terms of what they identify for readers in the story. For example, in Harry Potter Hermione Granger is the most gifted of all the young characters when it comes to magic, and it has nothing to do with her bloodline. It is entirely her own ability. Whereas there is no escaping the point that the icon of female empowerment in the super-hero genre is currently super-powered because her her dad was super-powered. And horny.

    Good work on the comic - it looks great!
    Personally, I agree with those whom prefer the Clay origin. I'm not really enraged about the Zeus origin, though.. and I do understand the ramifications of what the change entails. I think this is a little more generic, as many others (and yourself) have pointed out.

    What did kind of bother me more, was what was done to the Amazons. I understand they wanted some new fresh take, but this seemed rather drastic not fresh. All the way from the raids (which I don't care if they're redeemed.. I still don't like it, to their more primitive life style.

    I don't know why all of a sudden all this need for "relatability" across the board. I identify with Wonder Woman because of how she is, and her ideals not because she has a ******-up family or flaws. I don't want to "relate" to Superman, Wonder Woman, [fill in the blank hero]. I just want to read about their adventures and the impossible things they do. Escapism.

    At the end of the day, we all know that this too shall pass. It may be Nu-52, but it's still the same creators.. and as such things will change again sooner or later.

  2. #272
    Top Carnivore Lafanboy's Avatar
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    I prefer the clay origin but overall I'm liking Azz's run. But with WW EARTH ONE releasing this year, I'm curious how that graphic novel will tell Diana's origin. Clay or fathered by Zeus? Either way, I'm excited to (finally) read a new WW origin story since Azz has shied away from giving details regarding his version of how she came to Man's World.

  3. #273
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafanboy View Post
    I prefer the clay origin but overall I'm liking Azz's run. But with WW EARTH ONE releasing this year, I'm curious how that graphic novel will tell Diana's origin. Clay or fathered by Zeus? Either way, I'm excited to (finally) read a new WW origin story since Azz has shied away from giving details regarding his version of how she came to Man's World.
    Is there any place to read about this Earth1 Wonder Woman?

    Although, I really wouldn't expect any retro-feel with any superhero project coming out of DC. She'll probably be as different from Azzarello's as his was from Odyssey and before.

  4. #274
    Top Carnivore Lafanboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Is there any place to read about this Earth1 Wonder Woman?

    Although, I really wouldn't expect any retro-feel with any superhero project coming out of DC. She'll probably be as different from Azzarello's as his was from Odyssey and before.
    There was a thread about WW Earth One here on CBR. No release date given except sometime in 2013. Grant Morrison is writing it (which pissed off Rucka because apparently he'd been promised this project). I've heard Morrison will play up Marston's original bondage themes and yes, I expect something totally different than Azz. 2013 might just be a super year for Diana!

  5. #275
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Is there any place to read about this Earth1 Wonder Woman?
    The Wonder Woman: Earth 1 graphic novel by Grant Morrison, to be released at an unspecified date this year.

    It probably will feel about as retro as All-Star Superman.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Some [like slvn ] would probably argue that this is a more poignant statement now, since Diana is INSIDE the patriarachal system but actively operating against it, thus making her a more relatable character to those of us also born into this paradigm. She uses the power she inherited from her male parent to further the cause of female empowerment.
    Well put--even if you're not quite persuaded by your own excellent point.

    I dont agree with that entirely. Super-powers are different to ones normal skills and abilities in terms of what they identify for readers in the story. For example, in Harry Potter Hermione Granger is the most gifted of all the young characters when it comes to magic, and it has nothing to do with her bloodline
    Well, actually, it might have something to do with her bloodline, according to J.K. Rowling:

    How exactly do muggleborns receive magical ability

    J.K. Rowling: Muggle-borns will have a witch or wizard somewhere on their family tree, in some cases many, many generations back. The gene re-surfaces in some unexpected places.

    From http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/20...hat-transcript
    Also, what really sets Hermione apart from her peers seems to be intelligence, the potential for which was probably inherited from her parents.

    Still, I would agree that the abilities are hers; I would just add that the abilities of Sirius Black are likewise his, even though they derive more obviously form her bloodline. And the Blacks' family tradition of being horrible doesn't prevent Sirius from using his abilities for good. To me, the fact that he can "subvert" and redeem his family's legacy and make something good of it is pretty wonderful.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-20-2013 at 10:23 PM.

  7. #277
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    I dunno if this has been linked yet but this writer explains why I do not like the current version of Wonder Woman.

    http://www.amazonarchives.com/new.htm

    Definitely worth a read. Not nearly as diehard of a fan as this person but even I realize that Wonder Woman has been done a grave injustice due to Azzarello's writing. Not only did he ruin the Amazons and Diana's origin story but this 5 new/undiscovered demigod thing per issue thing just is awful story.

  8. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    Not only did he ruin the Amazons and Diana's origin story but this 5 new/undiscovered demigod thing per issue thing just is awful story.
    incorrect.
    ಠ_ಠ

  9. #279
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Dark View Post
    incorrect.
    Just a friendly reminder - opinions are neither right nor wrong. Please debate opinions rather than just making a one word judgment. Sort of the whole point of this forum ;)
    Gaelforce
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  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    I dunno if this has been linked yet but this writer explains why I do not like the current version of Wonder Woman.

    http://www.amazonarchives.com/new.htm
    I really appreciate Amazon Archives as an amazing resource for Wonder Woman fans. But some of what's in that "goodbye" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, how can it be that this run is "catering for the bloodlust of the "video gamer" generation "? Not only does the run not feature constant violence, but, judging by other criticisms I've read here, it doesn't feature enough action for even some of the traditional fans (who complain about slow pace and a paucity of superhero battles) let alone enough for stereotypical "video gamers."

    this 5 new/undiscovered demigod thing per issue thing just is awful story.
    Since issue 12--or, for that matter, since issue 6--we've seen a total of two new demigods (Siracca and Milan), or three if Cassandra turns out to be one. (The First Born is not a demigod; both of his parents are gods.) So your claim of five per issue is beyond hyperbole. Anyway, what's wrong with introducing new characters? It's world building.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-21-2013 at 10:02 AM.

  11. #281
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I really appreciate Amazon Archives as a resource for Wonder Woman fans. But some of what's in that "goodbye" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, how can it be that this run is "catering for the bloodlust of the "video gamer" generation "? Not only does the run not feature constant violence, but doesn't feature enough action for even some of the traditional fans, let alone stereotypical "vide o gamers."



    Since issue 12--or, for that matter, since issue 6--we've seen a total of two new demigods (Siracca and Milan), or three if Cassandra turns out to be one. (The First Born is not a demigod; both of his parents are gods.) So your claim of five per issue is beyond hyperbole. Anyway, what's wrong with introducing new characters? It's world building.
    Of course it was hyperbole. I guess I should've worded it better because I actually meant for it to include Gods, Demigods, First Borns, and New Gods. Introducing new characters all the time is bad when it's hard for a lot of people to even connect with the ones that are already there. There's way too many new characters popping up who just have to show off their powers in some extravagant way that we never actually get enough time focusing on Diana, Zola, Hera, Lennox, or any of the cast that are consistently there. There are those small character moments every now and then, but we're about to be at issue #16 of Wonder Woman, there should be more than small character moment hints that may/may not get you to actually care for them.

    The constant need to bring in every single God, Demigod, First Born, and New God into Wonder Woman's story is very overwhelming and annoying. Wonder Woman should be about Wonder Woman. Instead, she acts like some new reporter who is giving us the exclusives on how cool everyone but her is. While some guy shows off how cool his flies are, we're still left wondering what the hell her God Mode abilities are, and we leave it to the Superman family to tell us if she can fly or not.

  12. #282
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I really appreciate Amazon Archives as a resource for Wonder Woman fans. But some of what's in that "goodbye" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, how can it be that this run is "catering for the bloodlust of the "video gamer" generation "? Not only does the run not feature constant violence, but, judging by other criticisms I've read here, it doesn't feature enough action for even some of the traditional fans (who complain about slow pace and a paucity of superhero battles) let alone enough for stereotypical "video gamers."
    I think that piece was originally posted in response to the JMS/Hester run, rather than the Azzarello run; and whatever you can say about the JMS run, it was plentifully violent and had many action sequences.

    I suspect that JMS was an experiment to see how much ugliness and destruction the current readership would tolerate before dropping the book, and may have been an attempt to alienate and get rid of readers in preparation for Azzarello. If so, the test parameters were off. The renumbering of #600 as requested by the readers strikes me in retrospect as another act of deliberate editorial cruelty.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    In one way I feel bad for him.

    But this farewell post seems to be based partially on ignorance (the remark about violence and videogamer's) and partially on pent up rage at a franchise that had been letting him down long before Azzarello came on board.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus
    I think that piece was originally posted in response to the JMS/Hester run
    No--it starts with a brief quote from something the author had previously written about the JMS/Hester run, but the present piece, as a whole, purports to be about the New 52 Wonder Woman. The "video gamer" bit to which I referred is explicitly about the New 52:

    The DC New 52 has turned into everything I feared it would. DC are creating a dark and depressing universe, catering for the bloodlust of the "video gamer" generation and in doing so have no qualms in deconstructing the Wonder Woman character - a world wide icon - tearing asunder her costume, her heritage, her motivations, her belief systems and pretty much every facet that her creator endowed her with and that made her the unique character she is.
    While I'm sure you agree with a lot of that, I think it would be hard to acknowledge the slow (or, in my view, epic) pace of the current run, and its relatively small dose of superheroic action, and still say it is "catering for the bloodlust of the 'video gamer' generation."

    I suspect that JMS was an experiment to see how much ugliness and destruction the current readership would tolerate before dropping the book, and may have been an attempt to alienate and get rid of readers in preparation for Azzarello.
    You don't think they might have been just trying to get the sales out of their twenties? And what they found is that lots of pointless video game violence isn't the way to sustain high sales over a substantial period of time. So they're trying Azzarello's subtler approach instead.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-21-2013 at 10:30 AM.

  15. #285
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    While I don't think I agree that Wonder Woman is now being targeted at the "video gamers", it definitely gives off the vibes that this is a man's book for men. The Amazons are now disgusting rapists, murderers, child neglecters, misandrists, and snakes. Diana is being more defined as the daughter of Zeus rather than the child of Hippolaytia (sp?). It's no longer targeted at most WW fans but to male readers.

    JL seems to be definitely targeted to the violent teen crowd though.

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