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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    At the Olympus Family Pool Party when he tells the others how Artemis got her beat-down (poor Artemis, I did feel bad for her here).

    I'm not the biggest fan of "god mode." It seems like something poorly defined (so far?) that can go really wrong in a number of directions ("hey, Diana, where the #### was god mode when I was being kidnapped?!?! ). Moreover, while I'm aware that it harkens back to old school WW, I don't see WW as the type of character that's better with a "beskerer smash" uncontrolable curse. Not a world-building moment I'm in love with (so far?), but that's just me.
    Ah.. yes. I remember. Got it.



    And I agree. I'm not a fan of it either for the same reasons.

    To me, God Mode is like taking credit for winning a drag-race after hitting the Turbo button on a car that typically doesn't come with one installed from factory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Well it's a well thought out assumption that perhaps using the "God Mode" is a danger to one's own sanity (for example), but this would make me question WHY she used it to begin with (should your assumption be correct). In that scene, Hermes had ALREADY taken Zola, and the baby away back to Earth. Wonder Woman had ZERO need to fight Artemis. She behaved like a pre-high school teenager just to "teach her a lesson". Sure, it was exciting to see and read.. but story-wise it just didn't make any sense.
    It doesn't matter much that Hermes had already taken Zola; following Hermes and Zola back to Earth would be child's play for Artemis and Apollo. Now that he's on the throne of Heaven, Apollo might even be able to strike Zola down without following. And Strife had seemed to convince Apollo that Zola's baby might well be the looming threat to the gods. So Wonder Woman has every reason to think that Zola and her baby were still at risk of harm at the hands of Apollo and Artemis. And for Diana, saving a friend she loves, and an innocent sibling as well, is every bit as important as saving the world entire. That's one of the things I like best about her; she's not just about saving the world in the abstract, but about loving people.

    By defeating Artemis and acting like she might actually snap her neck, Diana gets Apollo to offer a deal and promise to leave Zola and the kid alone. So for a selfless hero like Wonder Woman, what she achieves here is worth risking her sanity. OR, if the main threat of god mode is to bystanders, Wonder Woman has dealt with that threat by sending Zola away before uncuffing and transforming.


    To me, God Mode is like taking credit for winning a drag-race after hitting the Turbo button on a car that typically doesn't come with one installed from factory
    Nah--if the cuffs inhibit the powers Diana naturally inherited, it's more like winning the drag race after removing a device that someone had installed, post-factory, to slow the car down. When she uncuffs and energizes, she's just using the full power she was (apparently) born with. And what's wrong with winning like that?
    Last edited by slvn; 01-15-2013 at 09:02 PM.

  3. #198
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    By defeating Artemis and acting like she might actually snap her neck, Diana gets Apollo to offer a deal and promise to leave Zola and the kid alone. So for a selfless hero like Wonder Woman, what she achieves here is worth risking her sanity.
    No it isnt, because an insane out of control Wonder Woman is a lot more dangerous to the entire world. A person with the power of a god and not understanding of right and wrong? I think we have seen what happens with that through Hera.


    Nah--if the cuffs inhibit the powers Diana naturally inherited, it's more like winning the drag race after removing a device that someone had installed, post-factory, to slow the car down. When she uncuffs and energizes, she's just using the full power she was (apparently) born with. And what's wrong with winning like that?
    I'm with Rob and American on this one. It's lame. Meta-textually, the only way she can win a fight is by becoming more like a guy, which I find "bleh". Its not as lame as lifting the planet for five days, but it left me unimpressed. "Oh look, after all that gadding about she won the fight in 5 seconds. Meh."

    After a year of seeing Diana smacked around by any character who had an actual name, I found that fight totally anti-climactic, and massively disappointing.

    edit: No, I am not fogetting Aleka in issue #2. OMG, Wonder Woman took down an opponent that Huntress could beat up. Wow. The Superman fans must punch the air when they see him knock out Killer Moth.
    Last edited by brettc1; 01-15-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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  4. #199

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    I love reading Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No it isnt, because an insane out of control Wonder Woman is a lot more dangerous to the entire world. A person with the power of a god and not understanding of right and wrong? I think we have seen what happens with that through Hera.
    It depends, in part, on whether Wonder Woman thinks the risk is manageable. It appears she decides that, if she has to, she can muster enough self control to take the cuffs off, release her full power, and then put the cuffs back on and revert to normal before any damage is done. And, whatever epic amount of self control this requires, she demonstrates that she does indeed have it.

    And she might have faith in other heroes to stop her if she becomes a threat to the world. Her priority in the moment is to protect her friend, at whatever risk to herself. It might not be what Mr. Spock would do, but it's a loving thing to do. In the logic of the heart, sometimes the good of one's friend may outweigh "the good of the many."

    I'm with Rob and American on this one. It's lame. Meta-textually, the only way she can win a fight is by becoming more like a guy, which I find "bleh".
    "Becoming more like a guy" how? It's not like she powers up by strapping on the Codpiece of Might or something. She inherited the power from her father, true, but I don't think there's anything inherently masculine about it. If a woman happens to inherit musical or artistic talent from her father, I don't say that using this talent makes her "more like a guy."
    Last edited by slvn; 01-15-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I
    "Becoming more like a guy" how? She inherited the power from her father, true, but I don't think there's anything inherently masculine about it. If a woman happens to inherit musical or artistic talent from her father, I don't say that using this talent makes her "more like a guy."
    QFT.

    10char

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It depends, in part, on whether Wonder Woman thinks the risk is manageable. It appears she decides that, if she has to, she can muster enough self control to take the cuffs off, release her full power, and then put the cuffs back on and revert to normal before any damage is done. And, whatever epic amount of self control this requires, she demonstrates that she does indeed have it.
    No, slvn, she does not. Becuase no such thing is said. No such thing is even IMPLIED. For all that we see on the page there is not effort whatsover involved and its something she can turn on and off whenever she likes. The only hint that we have that what you are saying here is possibly maybe true is what Lennox says this last issue about the blood of Zeus, and fair to say he himself does not seem to have been driven mad with power. But you cannot argue with a fact that are actually guesses based on a desired outcome. Data data data. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence". Holmes

    Admittedly we would have little to talk about on these boards recently if we adhered strictly to that principal, since Azzarello portions out facts like gruel in a Charles Dickens workhouse, but it remains you have built a case here on speculation, not evidence.

    And she might have faith in other heroes to stop her if she becomes a threat to the world. Her priority in the moment is to protect her friend, at whatever risk to herself. It might not be what Mr. Spock would do, but it's a loving thing to do. In the logic of the heart, sometimes the good of one's friend may outweigh "the good of the many."
    Again, there is no evidence to suggest that any such logic was needed. We saw her beat up Artemis with no effort, and that is all. Why does she wear the cuffs? We dont know. What happens if she takes them off for a while? We dont know. No risk is shown. When one is, then we will talk.


    "Becoming more like a guy" how? It's not like she powers up by strapping on the Codpiece of Might or something. She inherited the power from her father, true, but I don't think there's anything inherently masculine about it. If a woman happens to inherit musical or artistic talent from her father, I don't say that using this talent makes her "more like a guy."
    It makes her more like Zeus, and less like her mother. Where the Amazon failed, the child of Zeus wins easily. I found it quite disheartening, philosophically.
    Last edited by brettc1; 01-15-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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  8. #203
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    I've said all along that the cuffs thing she does to go to 'god-mode' is just a writers cheat. How does Diana win in a situation where she has been getting her ass beaten consistently (and should by full gods)? I know, lets go to a new power that lets her unleash her full potential, and then let the readers question why she didn't use this power before.

    Or when she goes into other situations, gets her ass handed to her, and again lets the readers wonder why she didn't use god-mode again.

    Or, why in other books, like in Justice League, why she didn't go into 'god-mode' against another god like Darkseid. Probably because there is little collaboration between Azz and the rest of the DC universe to the extent that I bet writers like Geoff Johns would be surprised when she pulled the god-mode power out of her ass to win the day.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It makes her more like Zeus, and less like her mother. Where the Amazon failed, the child of Zeus wins easily. I found it quite disheartening, philosophically.
    Thats kinda a silly line of reasoning, because it removes Diana from the equation. It's neither Zeus or Hippolyta who's beating up Artemis, its Diana and the powers she's had since birth granted to her through the union of her parents, one does not diminish the other.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Thats kinda a silly line of reasoning,
    No it isnt.

    because it removes Diana from the equation. It's neither Zeus or Hippolyta who's beating up Artemis, its Diana and the powers she's had since birth granted to her through the union of her parents, one does not diminish the other.
    Yes he does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No, slvn, she does not. Becuase no such thing is said. No such thing is even IMPLIED. For all that we see on the page there is not effort whatsover involved and its something she can turn on and off whenever she likes. The only hint that we have that what you are saying here is possibly maybe true is what Lennox says this last issue about the blood of Zeus, and fair to say he himself does not seem to have been driven mad with power. But you cannot argue with a fact that are actually guesses based on a desired outcome. Data data data. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence". Holmes
    Easy there, Sherlock. Lay off that 7% solution of cocaine. :) I wasn't claiming to know whether it takes an effort to effort to put the cuffs back on--or, more to the point, whether it takes any effort to keep herself together while they are off--but we were discussing the hypothetical scenario that perhaps god mode is a threat to her sanity. In that instance, it would appear that, whatever the extent of the risk, she could beat it; she could take the cuffs off and put them back on and still be sane. Sorry if I went light on conditional language in that post, but the point is that IF taking off the cuffs and turning up her power risks her sanity, she successfully bet that she could manage that risk. And--if that was the case-- she won that bet.

    Admittedly we would have little to talk about on these boards recently if we adhered strictly to that principal, since Azzarello portions out facts like gruel in a Charles Dickens workhouse, but it remains you have built a case here on speculation, not evidence.
    Sherlock Holmes, as Doyle wrote him, could probably have figured out Diana's social security number by now. HIS idea of "enough data" is often what others would call an amazingly small amount of data, and part of the fun is watching what he can deduce from the dirt on someone's shoes or the wear on someone's stopwatch. And there is fun to be had, for many readers of fiction, in inferring and guessing what's going on instead of having everything laid out for you. Another writer might dumb it down by just telling us everything in a straightforward passage of exposition, but I'm glad Azzarello keeps us guessing. And thinking.

    I suspect Holmes would see that she says that the cuffs protect her enemies, he would see that takes off the cuffs when she needs to be more powerful, but on other occasions (notably when there is a human around) she leaves the cuffs on despite having some need for more power, and he would begin to hypothesize that some risk is involved in the cuffless, powered up state. That hypothesis would be strengthened by the dialogue with Lennox in 13 and (if Holmes was reading the book and acting as a "literary detective") by 13's whole theme of the burden of a curse of a god's power. And it would also be strengthened by the interview in which Azz said "god mode" was inspired by berserker rage and that part of what that moment in 12 represents is that Wonder Woman can do what she wants. This probably implies that only now Wonder Woman has felt the need to restrain herself, and if she is using the cuffs to restrain herself, it is probably because she thinks there is some risk involved in not doing so.

    Again, there is no evidence to suggest that any such logic was needed. We saw her beat up Artemis with no effort, and that is all. Why does she wear the cuffs? We dont know. What happens if she takes them off for a while? We dont know. No risk is shown. When one is, then we will talk.
    In the message I responded to, you asserted that risking insanity would be the wrong moral choice. So we seem to be talking already. And I don't think it's a "capital mistake," because we're just talking about a comic book. Let's have some perspective. No one's going to the gallows for being wrong. :)

    It makes her more like Zeus, and less like her mother. Where the Amazon failed, the child of Zeus wins easily. I found it quite disheartening, philosophically.
    I don't believe that using an inherited ability makes her "more like Zeus" in any but a superficial way. It's not the powers that make the hero; it's how, and for what purpose, she uses the powers. And anyway, we still don't know why she (in god mode) is more powerful than the other demigods. Does it have something to do with her mother? I have a feeling that it might.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-16-2013 at 08:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Yes he does.
    He does what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    In the message I responded to, you asserted that risking insanity would be the wrong moral choice. So we seem to be talking already. And I don't think it's a "capital mistake," because we're just talking about a comic book. Let's have some perspective. No one's going to the gallows for being wrong. :)
    In your original post, you said that for a selfless hero like Wonder Woman, what she achieves here is worth risking her sanity. And if it were only her hypothetical sanity at risk, I would agree with you. But the superheroes you mention as being able to stop her cant even stop lunatics like the Joker from killing people - how are they going to stop a Joker than can beat the crap out of Superman? Before she kills? No, more likely all they would be able to do is keep the body count down in the thousands.

    Now IF her sanity were at risk and IF we had seen her take some kind of precaution to protect the innocent, then I would say it was a justifiable choice. But if your theoretical scenario is simply Wonder Woman risks turning into a dangerous psychopath to save the life of one person, then I would say no, that's not right. What would be right to me in that situation would be someone else suggesting it and her saying that she can't risk innocent lives doing that, not even for [insert name].

    What is interesting is that the lasso has been completely overlooked in all this. In past stories [like League of One] Diana has used its powers for self examination to prevent exactly this sort of hypothetical loss of control.


    I don't believe that using an inherited ability makes her "more like Zeus" in any but a superficial way. It's not the powers that make the hero; it's how, and for what purpose, she uses the powers. And anyway, we still don't know why she (in god mode) is more powerful than the other demigods. Does it have something to do with her mother? I have a feeling that it might.
    mmm. A feeling. Evidence?

    Getting powers dont make you a hero, but in comics the powers and the hero are linked. Spider-Man would not be Spider-Man if you changed his powers to Captain Marvel's. By the same token, Captain America should not be as strong as the Hulk, because the nature of his character is all about truimphing over adversity and never giving up in the face of overwhelming odds. Similarly doing anway with his shield for a high tech gizmo that can be shield and a whole lot of other useful things, while interesting for brief periods and particular story arcs, is not going to fly long term. It's not just what the shield can do, but what it represents, that is important.

    Previously, and this speaks to Outside_85's question as well, Wonder Woman's origin was designed to be female-centric. Intentionally so. Others have pointed out at great length that other heroes origin stories are often dominated by father figures, and almost never by mothers. With Superman, Jor-El is the important one and Lara is in the background. The same goes for Batman. Hal Jordan is motivated by his father's death. With Spider-Man is was Uncle Ben. Thor's relationship with any of his mother figures is never shown as being as significant as with Odin. Even with strong female characters like Lois Lane, their background seems to be dominated by the father figure in their life.

    Previously, Diana existed because of her mother's love. She exists now because Zeus wanted to shag her mother. To me, that's a big hit to the one story that places the mother first. Hippolyta says herself she did it Zeus because he was so very very yummy to her - no mention of wanting a little girl. Rather than being a product of the desire for a child to love she is now the side-effect of a guy turning up wanting to get it on with her mother. And further, when it is not enough to be Wonder Woman to win the day, she now becomes Zeus-Girl. To me and others that another hit. For some, like maybe Americanwonder, it just dull.

    But since you have debated so impressively, I will throw you a bone. Hephaestus only turns up to adjust the cuffs [another bad idea, but anyway] after the meeting on Olympus. Contrary to what others believe, I dont buy that he would make something and not know what it does. So when he saw Artemis' bruises, it seems probable he would deduce what had happened. Why then, adjust the bracers to provide added weaponry? Could it be he is trying to give Diana more options than just simply taking them off?
    Last edited by brettc1; 01-16-2013 at 01:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Previously, and this speaks to Outside_85's question as well, Wonder Woman's origin was designed to be female-centric. Intentionally so. Others have pointed out at great length that other heroes origin stories are often dominated by father figures, and almost never by mothers. With Superman, Jor-El is the important one and Lara is in the background. The same goes for Batman. Hal Jordan is motivated by his father's death. With Spider-Man is was Uncle Ben. Thor's relationship with any of his mother figures is never shown as being as significant as with Odin. Even with strong female characters like Lois Lane, their background seems to be dominated by the father figure in their life.
    And this is where I point out that none of the characters you mention are shaped by what their father figures did professionally, they are for the most part shaped by what happened to them.
    Batman and Spiderman are shaped by the deaths of theirs.
    Superman got a one way ticket, even in the New 52 Superman has only learned about his own parents long after he's moved to Metropolis.
    And yes, Thor's relationship with mother is rarely touched upon...because she happens to be one of the Elder Goddess and is rarely seen as it is. Not to mention Thor happens to come from a world thats traditionally male-fixated like the Amazons are female-fixated. Unlike the Amazons however, there actually is the other sex in the world of the vikings.

    Previously, Diana existed because of her mother's love. She exists now because Zeus wanted to shag her mother. To me, that's a big hit to the one story that places the mother first. Hippolyta says herself she did it Zeus because he was so very very yummy to her - no mention of wanting a little girl. Rather than being a product of the desire for a child to love she is now the side-effect of a guy turning up wanting to get it on with her mother. And further, when it is not enough to be Wonder Woman to win the day, she now becomes Zeus-Girl. To me and others that another hit. For some, like maybe Americanwonder, it just dull.
    It seems more like you, and the others you speak of, are simply unable to accept there is suddenly a man involved in her creation. And that from now on, everything she does will be thanks to him. Thats not a problem with the story or Diana, its your perception thats broke.
    Diana does not grow a massive beard or a pair of nuts whenever she goes into god-mode, nor does Zeus magically appear to turn her off and on or sort out her problems. God-mode is Diana drawing on her own power when it is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    In your original post, you said that for a selfless hero like Wonder Woman, what she achieves here is worth risking her sanity. And if it were only her hypothetical sanity at risk, I would agree with you. But the superheroes you mention as being able to stop her cant even stop lunatics like the Joker from killing people - how are they going to stop a Joker than can beat the crap out of Superman? Before she kills? No, more likely all they would be able to do is keep the body count down in the thousands.
    Eh. You're being too logical. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many, as Kirk tells Spock. Anyway, I said she has faith in her fellow heroes, and "faith is the evidence of things unseen"; and I'm sure you'll agree with me that heroes' ability to keep scary people in check is a thing unseen in contemporary comics.

    But even if I can't sell that point--and it seems possible that I can't :) -- the important thing (to me) is this: IF god mode is a threat to her sanity, she bets that she can dodge that threat; and she wins that bet. Was it an impulsive bet? Perhaps, but it was a bet made out of love, and we know that love sometimes makes this Wonder Woman impulsive. And it's a bet he wins (perhaps because she controls her cuffless self by an effort of will, as she did in that Silver Age Gerry Conway story when she bascially talks herself down out of berserker mode).

    mmm. A feeling. Evidence?
    Mostly just faith. :) But she is probably the only one of Zeus' kids who is the child of a matriarch as illustrious and independent as Hippolyta. And going by what Hermes says i issue 2, it seems that she is probably the only one to whom Zeus appeared in his own form. And in #3, Hippolyta certainly makes the absolute surrender of control between her ansd Zeus sound unique. So if her conception is unique in these ways, and her power is also unique about Zeus' demigods, is that really just a coincidence? r might it be the kind of seeimg "coincidence"from which Sherlock Holmes might draw at least a tentative deduction?

    Getting powers dont make you a hero, but in comics the powers and the hero are linked. Spider-Man would not be Spider-Man if you changed his powers to Captain Marvel's. By the same token, Captain America should not be as strong as the Hulk, because the nature of his character is all about truimphing over adversity and never giving up in the face of overwhelming odds. Similarly doing anway with his shield for a high tech gizmo that can be shield and a whole lot of other useful things, while interesting for brief periods and particular story arcs, is not going to fly long term. It's not just what the shield can do, but what it represents, that is important.

    Sure. Having powers is what makes them super. But what they do with those powers is what makes them heroes. Getting bitten by a radioactive spider makes Spiderman like a spider in terms of abilities (in a way); as the old jigle goes, "he does whatever a spider can." And perhaps having god mode makes Wonder Woman somewhat like Zeus in terms of abilities. But in terms of ethics, character, spirit--everything that makes a superhero, as opposed to a supervillain or a superbystander, or an amoral Olympian--she is again about as much like Zeus as Spiderman is like a spider.


    I understand and respect the feeling that a matriarchal narrative has been lost[, but when I read you say that "She exists now because Zeus wanted to shag her mother," I can't help thinking that this is a pretty cynical and reductive reading of issue 3. What I remember is that she exists (according to her mother) because of a beautiful moment of complete surrender of control between two sovereigns. So maybe it's going to be not a story of straight matriarchy or patriarchy, but a story that undermines the necessity or value of gender hierarchy altogether. And that, I think, is more in keeping with 21st century feminism.

    But since you have debated so impressively, I will throw you a bone. Hephaestus only turns up to adjust the cuffs [another bad idea, but anyway] after the meeting on Olympus. Contrary to what others believe, I dont buy that he would make something and not know what it does. So when he saw Artemis' bruises, it seems probable he would deduce what had happened. Why then, adj.ust the bracers to provide added weaponry? Could it be he is trying to give Diana more options than just simply taking them off?
    Sure. I've speculated before that he may have worried that if Apollo and the others see her "god up" again, they might be even more likely to want to eliminate her as a threat--so giving her other options would make sense. I think Gaelforce had a similar idea, if I remember right
    Last edited by slvn; 01-16-2013 at 02:06 PM.

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