Did the creators forget about Ben Grimm?

**Robbie_Jee** · 01-14-2013, 09:50 AM

Ok.. so he doesn't have super-speed. But I meant whilst flying. And I wasn't talking about when he tackled Mahr-Vehl, I was referring to when he clashed fists with him.

The fundamental aspect of all this anyway is how much more powerful Ben appears to be in relation to all the other characters. Whether (you're) counting the hits, or whether it's about KO's, Ben still takes out more enemies than anyone else, and not only that, in each of the scenes he's depicted in, he's taking on more enemies than anyone else.

Not only that, but the one thing you keep failing to address is when the heroes start struggling towards the end. Here are two things that happen, right before Ben truly starts kicking ass.
-Spider-Woman gets her feet grabbed, ready to be slammed into the ground.
-Thor, Cap and Ironman start struggling as they huddle close, back to back. (Please note that Ben doesn't do anything of the sort. Ben's fine on his own).
And yet.. you seem to think there's no sign of struggle and that no one is being attacked. I'm sorry Plawsky, but it's right their in the EXACT panels you scanned.

Then, right after the Big Three are shown struggling, you turn the page and see Ben pushing forward, taking out more enemies and standing over a cowering Reed Richards in what is the majority of a glorious two-page spread. Similarly to a lot of other fight scenes depicted in comics, the heroes are winning but are then starting to struggle before a certain team mate turns the tide. So you see, there is a reason why the Big Three are shown together, right before Ben takes down Reed. It's to depict Purple Ben as a more powerful being than them.

After Reed is down, the rest of the heroes clean up and take out the last remaining foot-soldiers.

Now. Let's compare Ben's feats to Thor's during that battle, whom you believe took out and took on just as many enemies as Ben.

Thor takes out less enemies than Ben and also takes ON less enemies than Ben. Not only that, but whenever you see Thor during that battle, he never leaves Cap's side. In fact, he's always fighting along side another character.. whilst Ben is shown for the majority of the battle, fighting without any help from anyone at all.

Ben IS handling the battle better than anyone else there. If you refuse to acknowledge this then I don't see the point in why I should continue arguing this with you, especially if you're so determined to not address these finer details. We've been on this subject now since yesterday morning and to be honest I have more important things to be getting on with. This isn't a continuing discussion anymore. We've stagnated. All because you keep stating absurd claims like how Thor is fighting just as capable as Ben. That's just not true. And everybody who's been following this debate, (hundreds of views) can quite clearly see that you've posted panels and then said something else entirely about what is actually being depicted.

Originally Posted by Plawsky

Like I said, it's behind the speech bubble in Thor's right hand. You can see the handle and the strap right next to his elbow. That would make it a follow through against the alien's jaw, which is why he's turned in that direction.

But if you're claiming Nova took it down while in human form, then that really diminishes the strength of the aliens.

My mistake. I mean it was the Human Torch who did. That is his energy blast, right? It certainly isn't Thor's.

But still. Either way, it's a bit of reach to claim this as a take down, let alone say that that was Thor's doing. One can barely even see Thor, let alone hitting an enemy. The panel is extremely distorted. And even if he DID make that hit, he's still not handling the battle anywhere near as well as Ben. The entire battle scene depicts Ben as the most powerful character there. It is very possible that he isn't. But I'm just going by what Ultimate Doomsday tells us about Ben. Either way you look at it, he's at least somewhere around Thor's power level.

But if you disagree with that, that's cool. I'm just trying to be objective about this. Ben is depicted as a lot more powerful than you suggest, and that battle scene is definitely a good example of it.

I'll admit that I may have misinterpreted the Spider-woman panel, but she showed the ability to take one down (actually, rip it apart) right off the bat, so she's clearly strong enough to handle them.

When have I ever said anything about any character not being able to handle them?

I'm pretty sure most of the characters in that fight sequence were able to take down at least one. An army of superheroes such as that should, would and could. There's no denying that. It even shows Spider-Woman ripping the head off of one. A bit different to ripping it apart, but yeah, Spider-Woman got one. And possible another off panel too, but we won't go there.

Look back at that panel:

How are Cap and Thor not just as surrounded? Hell, so is Danvers (whose gun is clearly powerful enough to take down the aliens, something you haven't responded to yet).

Like I said, individually Cap and Thor are taking on fair few less than what Ben is. But this is just one example of how Ben is handling the battle better than anyone else

As for you're statement about Carol Danvers, I don't know what that's got to do with everything else we're debating. But yes, it does seem like those guns can do damage to the monsters. Especially if it's a head shot. Why not? It was pretty effective in Death of a Goblin against Norman Osbourne.

Why wouldn't guns be fired? I never said anything about guns not being able to effect the monsters. They're just monsters after all. What I'm arguing is how much Ben's ability is depicted in comparison to all the other heroes in the book. He's taking on more enemies than any one else and also gets the most take downs.

I agree with you completely about the capabilities of the guns/weapons, but nevertheless, for arguments sake, it doesn't actually show a gun being able to take one of them down, does it? She's just firing into the crowd.

I'm not trivialising the opinions that he's Wonder Man. I've been agreeing with that for more than two years now. Did you read what my post actually said on the matter? I'm saying that him being Wonder Man means nothing for his power level. Calling him Wonder Man doesn't suddenly make him as powerful as 616 Wonder Man, just like the Ultimate versions of many characters who have different powers and characterizations than their 616 versions (in addition to the ones I listed before, there are: Jessica Jones, Green Goblin, the Leader, Emma Frost, Thor, and many more).

And yet, I've seen no evidence that suggests they're weaker than their 616 counterparts. We all assume their power levels are roughly the same as their dopplegangers. So what makes Ben Grimm an exception?

**Robbie_Jee** · 01-14-2013, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by horsehead

Opinion is the key word here.

It is indeed. That's why I said it. Stating that they mean absolutely nothing when applied to hundreds of postersx trivialises like 98% of what people have been posting. But we've moved on from that now. I know Plawsky didn't mean for his words to come out like that.

Everything you have said is just your opinion.

Of course. But I'm making objective statements, not subjective ones. And they are objective opinions based on the facts presented. That's all a poster can ever do when referencing a comicbook. What's important is that we stick to what's actualy being presented to us and remain objective about it. Whereas if I was to make a statement about the comic that was distorted by individual bias, that would be subjective. Instead, all I'm stating is what has literally been shown in the comic, sticking to facts objectively, without being bias in any way.

A post on this board is rarely not an opinion. That should be obvious to anyone. That's why I always face palm whenever a poster points it out. It's like "you don't say!" y'know? :)

You never really see Ben's full potential, his power set has never been explained, it has never been said that he is Ultimate Wonder Man. This is just your (and some other posters) opinions. You could turn out to be correct but there is nothing to prove your claims at the moment.

What, that Ben is depicted as a more powerful character than the others? Well.. yes it does. Because that's exactly what it shows.

I know in the future that some other aspect could be explored in another book, proving me wrong. But you could say that about any character. But as it stands, if you're looking to see how Ben's abilities fair in comparison to other characters, that battle is what we go can go on.. until proven otherwise.

Just look at the battle and see for yourself. Ben's the strongest one there. Until a later book comes along which may prove otherwise.

My opinion is that he will turn out to be powerful but he will never be as strong as Hulk or as powerful as Thor or Hyperion. And no one is in a rush to use him as no one really knows what he can do

I reckon it would one epic battle. And it could go either way. But Thor's been beaten by much lesser opponents in the past, so I can imagine him losing to a "cosmic powerhouse" such as Ben. Plus, Ben has a phasing ability.

So far, all we can go is that battle scene, because it's the only example we have of how Ben fairs in comparison to the other characters depicted.

I'll get back to you the next time we see Ben and Thor fighting together. Maybe it'll be against eachother!!

**Plawsky** · 01-14-2013, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee

Ok.. so he doesn't have super-speed. But I meant whilst flying. And I wasn't talking about when he tackled Mahr-Vehl, I was referring to when he clashed fists with him.

Regardless of when you were talking about, he still doesn't have flight.

Not only that, but the one thing you keep failing to address is when the heroes start struggling towards the end. Here are two things that happen, right before Ben truly starts kicking ass.
-Spider-Woman gets her feet grabbed, ready to be slammed into the ground.
-Thor, Cap and Ironman start struggling as they huddle close, back to back. (Please note that Ben doesn't do anything of the sort. Ben's fine on his own).
And yet.. you seem to think there's no sign of struggle and that no one is being attacked. I'm sorry Plawsky, but it's right their in the EXACT panels you scanned.

I don't see how three people fighting as a team means they're struggling, they're fighting in close quarters. it's a small panel, it's kind of necessary for storytelling. In the big panels, they're shown just as spread out as anyone else. It's not that I failed to address these moments, it's that I disagree with them.

Then, right after the Big Three are shown struggling, you turn the page and see Ben pushing forward, taking out more enemies and standing over a cowering Reed Richards in what is the majority of a glorious two-page spread.

After the panel of the Big Three "struggling," you only see Ben take on soldiers in one more panel. In that same panel, Thor and Sue also take them down.

Thor takes out less enemies than Ben and also takes ON less enemies than Ben. Not only that, but whenever you see Thor during that battle, he never leaves Cap's side. In fact, he's always fighting along side another character.. whilst Ben is shown for the majority of the battle, fighting without any help from anyone at all.

1st panel - Ben is alone.
2nd panel - Ben is closer to Cap than Thor is. Everyone is fighting close together.
3rd panel - Everyone, including ben, is still fighting close together.
4th panel - Thor and Cap are no closer together than Ben is to Danvers.
5th panel - Thor is fighting the aliens while Cap shields Ock and Nova.
6th panel - Thor/Cap/Iron Man all close fighting.
8th panel - Ben is being shielded by Sue
9th panel - Ben, Thor, and Sue are all three fighting side by side.

Thor and Ben are each shown in six panels. Two of them (2, 3) are massive group fights, where everyone is fighting in the same place. In one (4), they are equally spread out. In one (9), they are side by side with one another. Thor is being shielded by Cap in one (5), while Ben is being shielded by Sue in one (8).

Therefore, the only panels you can say are unique are 1 and 6. In the first, the brawl hasn't started yet, so that's hardly of any use for this. In the sixth, the main Ultimates team is shown fighting as a team. However, even if you count that as Thor being reliant on a team (which I don't), it's still only one, versus the five in which he is literally the same as Ben in that regard.

And everybody who's been following this debate, (hundreds of views) can quite clearly see that you've posted panels and then said something else entirely about what is actually being depicted.

What are you basing that on? The only two other people who have posted on the matter have disagreed with you. Mind you, I'm not saying that makes me right, but you shouldn't claim that you have majority opinion on your side when there's no evidence for such.

My mistake. I mean it was the Human Torch who did. That is his energy blast, right? It certainly isn't Thor's.

There's no way to know for sure whose blast it is, since it's coming from off panel. But seeing as it matches the beams that Cap is blocking, it's more likely that it's from an enemy. Like I pointed out, Thor's right arm position in a follow through matches the alien's jaw and falling direction.

When have I ever said anything about any character not being able to handle them?

I'm pretty sure most of the characters in that fight sequence were able to take down at least one. An army of superheroes such as that should, would and could. There's no denying that. It even shows Spider-Woman ripping the head off of one. A bit different to ripping it apart, but yeah, Spider-Woman got one. And possible another off panel too, but we won't go there.

My point is that if they can take them out - and, as Spider-man remarks, it's not too difficult - then it's tough to place Ben's power level. If we saw Spidey getting stomped or Cap even taking a single punch in the face, it would be easier to say where Ben's power level was. However, a leg grab on Spider-woman (if that is what's happening; it's odd that you're so certain about that, but you claim the Thor panel is "too distorted") is the only hit we see anyone take. No one is punched, no one is on the ground, no one is bloody.

As for you're statement about Carol Danvers, I don't know what that's got to do with everything else we're debating. But yes, it does seem like those guns can do damage to the monsters. Especially if it's a head shot. Why not? It was pretty effective in Death of a Goblin against Norman Osbourne.

If SHIELD's guns are intimidating to the monsters, then that says at least something about their power level. If they're the same guns as they were in Death of a Goblin, then that would place them below Norman Osborn, since he survived a point blank headshot. But Spider-man struggled far more with Osborn than he did with these guys, so it's safe to say that they're far below him.

I agree with you completely about the capabilities of the guns/weapons, but nevertheless, for arguments sake, it doesn't actually show a gun being able to take one of them down, does it? She's just firing into the crowd.

That's true. But since Danvers is up and unscathed for the entire fight, I put two and two together. At the very least, she was able to hold them back. It's that last panel that I'm using to place the guns' effectiveness, as it's keeping them from attacking.

And yet, I've seen no evidence that suggests they're weaker than their 616 counterparts. We all assume their power levels are roughly the same as their dopplegangers. So what makes Ben Grimm an exception?

Ultimate Thor is far less powerful than 616 Thor.
Ultimate Spider-woman has a completely different power set than 616 SW.
Ultimate Emma Frost isn't telepathic.
Ultimate Jessica Jones doesn't even have powers.

Assuming the power levels are the same as 616 is rarely accurate. And remember:

1) Ben Grimm has never been called Wonder Man on panel. It's only a theory.
2) Even if he is Wonder Man, he's Ben Grimm, not Simon Williams. It's like Rick Jones being Ultimate Nova; there is no relation to 616 Nova there.

**Plawsky** · 01-14-2013, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee

Plus, Ben has a phasing ability.

You keep talking about "making objective statements based on what's on the panel," yet this is just the opposite. We don't know if Ben can phase through physical objects. And the fact that we see him punched multiple times, even by Reed, actually suggests otherwise.

No flight.
No super speed.
No physical phasing.