Ok.. so he doesn't have super-speed. But I meant whilst flying. And I wasn't talking about when he tackled Mahr-Vehl, I was referring to when he clashed fists with him.
The fundamental aspect of all this anyway is how much more powerful Ben appears to be in relation to all the other characters. Whether (you're) counting the hits, or whether it's about KO's, Ben still takes out more enemies than anyone else, and not only that, in each of the scenes he's depicted in, he's taking on more enemies than anyone else.
Not only that, but the one thing you keep failing to address is when the heroes start struggling towards the end. Here are two things that happen, right before Ben truly starts kicking ass.
-Spider-Woman gets her feet grabbed, ready to be slammed into the ground.
-Thor, Cap and Ironman start struggling as they huddle close, back to back. (Please note that Ben doesn't do anything of the sort. Ben's fine on his own).
And yet.. you seem to think there's no sign of struggle and that no one is being attacked. I'm sorry Plawsky, but it's right their in the EXACT panels you scanned.
Then, right after the Big Three are shown struggling, you turn the page and see Ben pushing forward, taking out more enemies and standing over a cowering Reed Richards in what is the majority of a glorious two-page spread. Similarly to a lot of other fight scenes depicted in comics, the heroes are winning but are then starting to struggle before a certain team mate turns the tide. So you see, there is a reason why the Big Three are shown together, right before Ben takes down Reed. It's to depict Purple Ben as a more powerful being than them.
After Reed is down, the rest of the heroes clean up and take out the last remaining foot-soldiers.
Now. Let's compare Ben's feats to Thor's during that battle, whom you believe took out and took on just as many enemies as Ben.
Thor takes out less enemies than Ben and also takes ON less enemies than Ben. Not only that, but whenever you see Thor during that battle, he never leaves Cap's side. In fact, he's always fighting along side another character.. whilst Ben is shown for the majority of the battle, fighting without any help from anyone at all.
Ben IS handling the battle better than anyone else there. If you refuse to acknowledge this then I don't see the point in why I should continue arguing this with you, especially if you're so determined to not address these finer details. We've been on this subject now since yesterday morning and to be honest I have more important things to be getting on with. This isn't a continuing discussion anymore. We've stagnated. All because you keep stating absurd claims like how Thor is fighting just as capable as Ben. That's just not true. And everybody who's been following this debate, (hundreds of views) can quite clearly see that you've posted panels and then said something else entirely about what is actually being depicted.
But still. Either way, it's a bit of reach to claim this as a take down, let alone say that that was Thor's doing. One can barely even see Thor, let alone hitting an enemy. The panel is extremely distorted. And even if he DID make that hit, he's still not handling the battle anywhere near as well as Ben. The entire battle scene depicts Ben as the most powerful character there. It is very possible that he isn't. But I'm just going by what Ultimate Doomsday tells us about Ben. Either way you look at it, he's at least somewhere around Thor's power level.
But if you disagree with that, that's cool. I'm just trying to be objective about this. Ben is depicted as a lot more powerful than you suggest, and that battle scene is definitely a good example of it.
When have I ever said anything about any character not being able to handle them?I'll admit that I may have misinterpreted the Spider-woman panel, but she showed the ability to take one down (actually, rip it apart) right off the bat, so she's clearly strong enough to handle them.
I'm pretty sure most of the characters in that fight sequence were able to take down at least one. An army of superheroes such as that should, would and could. There's no denying that. It even shows Spider-Woman ripping the head off of one. A bit different to ripping it apart, but yeah, Spider-Woman got one. And possible another off panel too, but we won't go there.
Like I said, individually Cap and Thor are taking on fair few less than what Ben is. But this is just one example of how Ben is handling the battle better than anyone elseLook back at that panel:
How are Cap and Thor not just as surrounded? Hell, so is Danvers (whose gun is clearly powerful enough to take down the aliens, something you haven't responded to yet).
As for you're statement about Carol Danvers, I don't know what that's got to do with everything else we're debating. But yes, it does seem like those guns can do damage to the monsters. Especially if it's a head shot. Why not? It was pretty effective in Death of a Goblin against Norman Osbourne.
Why wouldn't guns be fired? I never said anything about guns not being able to effect the monsters. They're just monsters after all. What I'm arguing is how much Ben's ability is depicted in comparison to all the other heroes in the book. He's taking on more enemies than any one else and also gets the most take downs.
I agree with you completely about the capabilities of the guns/weapons, but nevertheless, for arguments sake, it doesn't actually show a gun being able to take one of them down, does it? She's just firing into the crowd.
And yet, I've seen no evidence that suggests they're weaker than their 616 counterparts. We all assume their power levels are roughly the same as their dopplegangers. So what makes Ben Grimm an exception?I'm not trivialising the opinions that he's Wonder Man. I've been agreeing with that for more than two years now. Did you read what my post actually said on the matter? I'm saying that him being Wonder Man means nothing for his power level. Calling him Wonder Man doesn't suddenly make him as powerful as 616 Wonder Man, just like the Ultimate versions of many characters who have different powers and characterizations than their 616 versions (in addition to the ones I listed before, there are: Jessica Jones, Green Goblin, the Leader, Emma Frost, Thor, and many more).