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  1. #61

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    I was just kidding around. I read your posts, but what I'm not seeing is any substance to what makes Batgirl distinct. It's nice that she has a character conflict, but every character does. Your point about compassion and community delineating her from Batman is 1. Only accurate in certain depictions of Batman 2. Completely inadequate to delineate the character from Nightwing (who, himself, is very much Batman-lite at this moment, despite the different character).

    We're speaking not just to the character of Barbara Gordon, but to the character of Batgirl and the whole direction of the book here. Or at least I am.

    I haven't read the series extensively - I tried, but I couldn't get past issue 4. I hopped back on for the recent Joker crossover, and it was...exactly what I expected it to be. Bland. A lot of internal dialogue, but not a lot to say, if you know what I mean.

    I won't get into Batwoman, which you haphazardly deride in your posts without any attempt at real analysis, but there is a book that justifies its existence with each issue. I don't see that with Batgirl, and I'm certainly open to it. I felt exactly the same way before the last Batgirl book was released, with Steph, and grew not only to see why it needed to exist, but to love it/her. I'd like the same to be true of Barbara as Batgirl.
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  2. #62
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    I'm not wanting Batgirl to be Oracle again, but I do think her having the experience of Oracle and then returning to be Batgirl would be great. She was well loved as Oracle and even though she was crippled, she didn't let that stop her from living a full life. I feel like she already found her inner stregth and confident as Oracle and now she has lost it even though now she has her full range of motion back. In that sense, the character has gone back several steps. We've seen Barbara deal with her trauma and deal with it on an emotional level and overcome her weaknesses resulting from being a victim.

    Wanting her to be smarter and have computer skills isn't wanting her to be Oracle. It is wanting her to look before she leaps and be more attentive to prevent her from becoming a victim again. I like to see her with Brains. Is it wrong to want to see a heroine that is smart and confident rather than one defined by her weaknesses and and un unhealable emotional trauma?
    Chill!

  3. #63
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    What your stating as weakness though is what many of the readership who are enjoying this title are finding the protagonist to be human, flawed, and relatable. And she hasn't "lost" anything she never had in the first place, her time as Oracle never happened in this rebooted timeline. And IMO I don't feel that Barbara as Oracle ever really dealt with too much as she had become such a bitter and hardlined individual towards the end, whereas New 52 Batgirl is processing her feelings and fully dealing with them as they happen. That's more growth in my book.

    And what's this hang-up on "computers, computers, computers?" So what if this version of Barbara isn't as savvy with computers as her previous iteration, that character had to compensate for what she couldn't do physically. Batgirl doesn't have this problem, although she's made mention to Knightfall as we all saw that she will be working on enhancing her skill sets in this area in the future. Remember, she hasn't fallen back from a place she was at before, we are in REBOOT land. She's just a few steps past square one in her career, give her TIME to build her skills.
    Pull list:
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    I'm not wanting Batgirl to be Oracle again, but I do think her having the experience of Oracle and then returning to be Batgirl would be great. She was well loved as Oracle and even though she was crippled, she didn't let that stop her from living a full life. I feel like she already found her inner stregth and confident as Oracle and now she has lost it even though now she has her full range of motion back. In that sense, the character has gone back several steps. We've seen Barbara deal with her trauma and deal with it on an emotional level and overcome her weaknesses resulting from being a victim.

    Wanting her to be smarter and have computer skills isn't wanting her to be Oracle. It is wanting her to look before she leaps and be more attentive to prevent her from becoming a victim again. I like to see her with Brains. Is it wrong to want to see a heroine that is smart and confident rather than one defined by her weaknesses and and un unhealable emotional trauma?
    I would also be interested in finding out why she decided she wanted or needed to be Batgirl again as she gave it up before she was shot in both incarnations. Obviously Oracle did not have that option, but there should be more to it than just because she can now.

  5. #65
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    In that sense, the character has gone back several steps. We've seen Barbara deal with her trauma and deal with it on an emotional level and overcome her weaknesses resulting from being a victim.

    Wanting her to be smarter and have computer skills isn't wanting her to be Oracle. It is wanting her to look before she leaps and be more attentive to prevent her from becoming a victim again. I like to see her with Brains.
    I totally agree. One thing I enjoyed about Babs-as-Oracle is that she became a mentor/trainer to new heroes like Stephanie and Cass. It's too bad that Didio (or SOMEONE at DC) has a total hate-on for those two, because they could've come back as budding crime fighters (using the Spoiler and Black Bat monikers, of course). There'd be parallels with Bruce and the assorted Robins as Babs showed Cass and Steph the ropes. Only Babs would be more of a big sis. In the process, she would have rediscovered her own inner strength. The pre-reboot Babs was a born leader. They could've had nuBabs develop her dormant leadership skills.

  6. #66
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    And what's this hang-up on "computers, computers, computers?" So what if this version of Barbara isn't as savvy with computers as her previous iteration, that character had to compensate for what she couldn't do physically. Batgirl doesn't have this problem, although she's made mention to Knightfall as we all saw that she will be working on enhancing her skill sets in this area in the future. Remember, she hasn't fallen back from a place she was at before, we are in REBOOT land. She's just a few steps past square one in her career, give her TIME to build her skills.
    With the glacial pacing of most DC titles, Barbara will have figured out how to use the Internet by issue 50.

    And given that Babs-as-Oracle was a computer wizard, it seems only natural that people would really want to see some of that in nuBabs. The pre-Oracle Babs was a librarian. Today's librarians have to be skilled at finding and acquiring information--and thus need to be computer savvy. This being All-Young! All-HAWT DC, I'm guessing nuBabs was never a librarian.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    I totally agree. One thing I enjoyed about Babs-as-Oracle is that she became a mentor/trainer to new heroes like Stephanie and Cass. It's too bad that Didio (or SOMEONE at DC) has a total hate-on for those two, because they could've come back as budding crime fighters (using the Spoiler and Black Bat monikers, of course). There'd be parallels with Bruce and the assorted Robins as Babs showed Cass and Steph the ropes. Only Babs would be more of a big sis. In the process, she would have rediscovered her own inner strength. The pre-reboot Babs was a born leader. They could've had nuBabs develop her dormant leadership skills.
    I do think that when she was de-aged it became one more factor going against Stephanie and Cass. I also think she was made younger to make her having the Batgirl name make more sense, as before that she must have been close to the same age as Batwoman.

  8. #68
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    The pre-Oracle Babs was a librarian. Today's librarians have to be skilled at finding and acquiring information--and thus need to be computer savvy. This being All-Young! All-HAWT DC, I'm guessing nuBabs was never a librarian.
    Correct, all library degree and librarian history has been tossed. New 52 Barbara Gordon has a degree in Forensic Psychology (whether this is a Master's or Ph.D. hasn't been stated yet).
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  9. #69
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    A person doesn't have to have a librarian or computer science degree to have those skills. Even with a Psyche degree, Barbara could have those skill sets. If nothing else, she has experience using Batman's equipment.

    I have loved that Batgirl has been kind of the broke member of the family with no lair or secret entrances to her home since she operates out of a van where she keeps her bike. I would love to see that van outfitted to be a mobile base of operations with all her tools, suits, and computers in there.
    Chill!

  10. #70
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    A person doesn't have to have a librarian or computer science degree to have those skills. Even with a Psyche degree, Barbara could have those skill sets.
    But the new emphasis is on her psychology degree, there's a reason that Ms. Simone changed this in her background. It enables for the more emotional emphasis we have been seeing in the book to date. Of primary importance to New 52 Barbara is connecting with victims in need, whether citizens or crooks who have themselves been victimized. It's by using her emotions that Batgirl is fighting crime in a new way that may have more longterm change for those involved. Even if Barbara learns a bit more about computers, IMO the break off into new territory has already begun in this timeline for a more emotional emphasis for Barbara in her work, rather than remote and dispassionate computer work. THIS Babs works face to face and connects with her feelings, and I am loving the change.
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  11. #71
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    A person doesn't have to have a librarian or computer science degree to have those skills. Even with a Psyche degree, Barbara could have those skill sets. If nothing else, she has experience using Batman's equipment.
    Agreed. And there's no reason she couldn't have empathy toward victims AND computer skills. Not only that, but if she's a college graduate, she'd be in her early 20s. If Cass and Steph are in their teens, they could be included. I like the idea of a van as a clubhouse where these superheroines meet up. And I love the idea of a van as a base of operations.

    Keep in mind that if Babs has a psych degree, that means she's got some math background as well, since psych students need to learn statistics. And really, one cool thing about Oracle was that she was a female computer geek.

  12. #72
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    Agreed. And there's no reason she couldn't have empathy toward victims AND computer skills.

    Keep in mind that if Babs has a psych degree, that means she's got some math background as well, since psych students need to learn statistics.
    Hate to burst your bubble but as a person who actually has both a B.S. and M.A. in Psychology, stats is a minor part of one's course work in relation to all the other classes that concentrate on the human mind in regards to pathology, therapeutic techniques, listening skills, etc. that are all about learning through clinical intervention and emotional connection to one's future patients. The only thing a computer is used for is to type up a paper for the most part.

    And your further comments merely elucidate that all the hoopla about wanting to change the current New 52 Batgirl into a more oracle-esque character per the third major point of the OP is to try to insert a domino effect of Pre-Flashpoint history into the new timeline's ongoing and ever changing forward narrative.
    Last edited by batGRRRl4ever; 01-10-2013 at 10:56 AM.
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  13. #73
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Seeing as how no one nowadays can get by without some computer skills I find it odd that Babs hasn't at least been shown using them herself even without the Oracle background. The students at my local high school all have laptops provided for them by the district and even I couldn't get through college years ago without having to learn my way around one so it would make sense to me that she at least has some kind of rudimentary skills in that area if she is closer to the age of the college kids I know if not more then that. She would have to have some skill in that area if only because of general ed. requirements that would need to have been done early in her college career.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  14. #74
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Here's my take on her computer skills. I think the computer skills are incoming. I think its something they want to show develop though, rather than just have her have them.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-10-2013 at 10:59 AM.

  15. #75
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Exactly, Gail Simone has been one of the few writers in the New 52 to take the original edict of having heroes at the start of their careers and be on learning curves seriously.
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

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