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  1. #46
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    Everything is sales driven. If sales of Batgirl decline and enough fans want a change, change will happen. Don't get me wrong, I like Gail's writing, I just want the character to grow and act smarter.

    BTW, I'm curious, how did Gail's fortunes change?
    Chill!

  2. #47
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I'm speaking about Batgirl's ability to emotionally connect and empathize with others, which is an ability Batman distinctively lacks. How many times has it been said that Batman holds everyone he loves at bay, etc.? And I notice you state that Barbara is still a victim in the present tense when you stated "centering the book on being a victim" when in fact she experienced that in the past but is working past it, but also uses the feelings she had from that time to strengthen her ability to connect with current victims of crime and perpetrators of crime who also were once victimized. This as I said before is NOT weakness, it is STRENGTH, it is CONTROL, and it shows emotional COURAGE. And that is something I look forward to reading more of for a long time to come as apparently Ms. Simone is now "bullet proof".
    In the Planetary/Batman crossover it is exactly Batman's empathy that resolves the situation in calming the man who is causing the reality shifts that are at the centre of the story. There may be other rare instances. On the other side of the coin sometimes the wearers of the Bat symbol need to intimidate criminals and know when to do that as much as when to empathise with them.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    Everything is sales driven. If sales of Batgirl decline and enough fans want a change, change will happen. Don't get me wrong, I like Gail's writing, I just want the character to grow and act smarter.

    BTW, I'm curious, how did Gail's fortunes change?
    I would speculate that the answer may lie with the events that will take place in the guest issues.

  4. #49
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    BTW, I'm curious, how did Gail's fortunes change?
    We the readers will probably never know. It was ironed out internally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    In the Planetary/Batman crossover it is exactly Batman's empathy that resolves the situation in calming the man who is causing the reality shifts that are at the centre of the story. There may be other rare instances. On the other side of the coin sometimes the wearers of the Bat symbol need to intimidate criminals and know when to do that as much as when to empathise with them.
    It was a point in the Planetary crossover that any and all Bat(men) they encountered were alternate reality versions, and still does not have place with the current New 52 Bruce Wayne. And in terms of shake downs we've seen Batgirl be threatening and get info out of mooks but also incredibly cutely in the Annual #1 she realized her heart wasn't into beating up a homeless man for info and gave the homeless group some cash for a meal.
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    It was a point in the Planetary crossover that any and all Bat(men) they encountered were alternate reality versions, and still does not have place with the current New 52 Bruce Wayne. And in terms of shake downs we've seen Batgirl be threatening and get info out of mooks but also incredibly cutely in the Annual #1 she realized her heart wasn't into beating up a homeless man for info and gave the homeless group some cash for a meal.
    I take your point about not beating up the homeless man, that was the way for her to go in that situation. I don't quite get the point about the alternate versions of Batman, unless you are saying that the current version is incapable of empathy. I would also say that there are two alternative Batgirls at the moment in terms of behavior in Birds of Prey and Batgirl.

  6. #51
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    I would also say that there are two alternative Batgirls at the moment in terms of behavior in Birds of Prey and Batgirl.
    You'll get no disagreement from me on that point, I've made statements on that myself in the past. Hopefully it won't be an issue anymore once Mr. Zub is on BOP in a few more months.
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  7. #52
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    if an individual does not like the very primary focus of a given title, in this case to explore the issues of victimization from a variety of involved parties at different points in time from those experiences, then why read that particular title when there are other bat-books without this emphasis?

    My point was hardly in the mere slightest a "love it or leave it" attitude, rather making the point as observed above that if one does not like a books PRIMARY focus, then why would one want to continue to read the title by changing that focus to make it another book entirely?
    But where did DC or Gail Simone ever say that the focus of this book was intended to perpetually be upon victimization? I think you're making an unwarranted assumption here.
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  8. #53
    The Older Waiter Brave Sir Robbin's Avatar
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    This is a new post but these points have been made in spades, at least the act your age and the victimization ones. I think that these points are the crux of the disagreement of the fans of the book who love Simone's character and those who don't. That is a simple statement but this is why it is important: the people who enjoyed watching Batgirl overcome her horrible trauma from Joker and watching the young woman mature and grow up (she is young adult. They tend not to be fully formed humans yet) are the ones that drove the sales. So when people want to change the character, they want to correct a mold that has been successful for a reason. Lots of people get irritated with the character, but her surprise success is built on being a different superhero. So what people here think of as an improvement to others would destroy the magic.

    However, I agree on the get a job point. If she plans on becoming an expert in security, cameras, tech, and all the other stuff, she better have a bankroll. Maybe she can work for Wayne Industries. Or maybe Starbucks. Babs seems like a Starbucks type. Beautiful, sweet, but helpful. The kind you crush on when getting your latte because she is adorable but doesn't have attitude.
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  9. #54
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robbin View Post
    So when people want to change the character, they want to correct a mold that has been successful for a reason. Lots of people get irritated with the character, but her surprise success is built on being a different superhero. So what people here think of as an improvement to others would destroy the magic.
    First off I missed reading your posts, nice to see you around :) To your point, this is one title that's success is based on the fact that this hero does in fact have a different voice from all the rest more standard type comic book characters and books. To simply state one wants the book to essentially become just like every other comic out there would take away it's unique voice and the sales from the readers who are enjoying this more intelligent and nuanced writing that is being brought to this title would go away and the title overall would suffer in both sales and quality.
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  10. #55
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    I'm curious: what is it that makes nuBabs distinct and unique from other characters, aside from her time in the wheelchair? I don't get the impression that she really has a defined personality/persona as other Bat-characters do. I still wish they would've kept her as a computer whiz, even if she was never Oracle. A Bat-hero fighting cyber-criminals would've been pretty cool.

  11. #56

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    For me to be interested, it needs a complete overhaul of direction. Take a page out of the books of Red Hood and Batwoman (not directly).

    What is Batgirl's niche, as a hero? What makes her distinct from Nightwing or Batman? It can't be just that she has tatums. There has to be more, about the way she operates, about the type of crime she attacks. So far we have got something, putting craft aside for a moment, completely generic for a Batman title.

    So put aside the physicality for a minute. I know that we brought her back from the Wheelchair for a reason, but lets take the focus off her as a physical crime fighter and go back to the cerebral, cyber crime she was fighting as Oracle. The physical stuff is good, can come into play, but there is no reason to make it the focus; indeed, it's not even logical.

    I'd focus on how brilliant she is. How she puts things together quickly. Model her after Sherlock Holmes in the current "Sherlock" show; perfect memory, maybe a bit obsessive, absurdly clever, impossibly good with computers. Read a few books on the subject of Cyber Crime, then comicfy some of those ideas into villains, and boom.

    I'm very disappointed that Simone is on this book; she is such a great writer in certain situations, so perfect for a number of books (I want her on suicide squad so badly), but this one I feel she is too close to. It's saccharine and vanilla and over-indulgent. But I hope she can reinvent her take.
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  12. #57
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    I would like to read why some of those who love Batgirl exactly as she is now state what makes her unique and different than everyone else in personality or style. As I think about it, the only things I can think of are her family connections.

    A lot of her fighting style and bright personality just remind me of Nightwing at present.
    Last edited by Seattle Freeze; 01-10-2013 at 07:07 AM.
    Chill!

  13. #58
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    I'm curious: what is it that makes nuBabs distinct and unique from other characters, aside from her time in the wheelchair? I don't get the impression that she really has a defined personality/persona as other Bat-characters do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    I would like to read why some of those who love Batgirl exactly as she is now state what makes her unique and different than everyone else in personality or style.
    Well that's already been explained here:

    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    ...
    And here:
    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    ...
    And here:
    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    ...
    And here:
    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    ...
    Annnnnd here:
    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    ...
    There IS a very clear and distinct voice here that Batgirl has, that is quite unique and separate from the other bat-titles. I think the crux for both of you, as you've already stated in this thread, is a desire for her to essentially not be Batgirl and to be Oracle again.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatWatch View Post
    As far as Oracle rimmed glasses, that is true. I can't help but compare Barbara's current incarnation to her previous one....this character is not the same in my book, and she is inferior in almost every way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    I understand she lost some years and her experience as Oracle but Babs can still be computer smart and skilled at researching persons and situations before jumping into a fight. Not only would her having a skill set make her relatable, it would show what she brings to the bat family.
    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    I still wish they would've kept her as a computer whiz, even if she was never Oracle. A Bat-hero fighting cyber-criminals would've been pretty cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    For me to be interested, it needs a complete overhaul of direction....lets take the focus off her as a physical crime fighter and go back to the cerebral, cyber crime she was fighting as Oracle.
    One cannot see what exists right in front of them in the present of the New 52 Batgirl if one is only looking through a past Pre-Flashpoint Oracle prism.
    Last edited by batGRRRl4ever; 01-10-2013 at 07:25 AM. Reason: add
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  14. #59

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    So the explanation is "..." ?

    I think what they want is for her to be distinct. Batgirl, as she exists right now, is not distinct as a hero. She's Nightwing and Batman. Batwoman has a distinct MO, she has a distinct mission statement, she works on a different scale.

    I'm not seeing that with Batgirl. She's facing the same crime that Nightwing and Batman are.
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  15. #60
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    I gave my reply with the links to all the previous comments already made fully explaining the question of what is unique about New 52 Batgirl. I can't help it if you don't want to go back and actually read them. The character IS unique, I suggest you go back and reread my previous post, it's all there, as well as the issues present for possibly you and some others as to why you don't see it.
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