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  1. #31
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    I also think and I know that I have said this before, that even the name "Batgirl" does factor into this, suggesting a juvenile status and someone that is assumed to still need training or experience to be on a level with other characters.
    I've never seen the name of Batgirl as associated to Barbara Gordon being juvenile to anything. When I hear "Batgirl" I think of the woman who attained a Ph.D. and became a U.S. Congresswoman in an age it was incredibly rare for a woman to accomplish such feats. When I see the name of Batgirl now I see a woman who has worked to rise above a personal tragedy and use the experience to help others. I see the name of Batgirl as associated with Barbara Gordon as being subservient to no one and belonging to a woman who strives to make her own way, and who inspires others. That's what the name Batgirl has always meant to me at any rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    As the opening poster says, I agree, she has taken the victim thread too far. Look at Huntress. She was a victim of rape at a young age and those experiences motivated her into her vigilante career but I wouldn't say those early experiences defined her nor did I ever see her talk about it all the time. Batgirl talks about her tragedy continually and seems to only interact with victims. Is that her role in Gotham? To only fight and rescue victims?

    The character needs to grow and rise above her tragedy. Otherwise the title should be renamed Batvictim.
    Huntress/Bertinelli was just another gruff take no prisoners character not unlike Batwoman as I described in my previous post. I'd rather read a title where the psychological underpinnings for the protagonist and those around her are explored more in depth rather than just a cursory view. And yes, rescuing victims, both citizens of Gotham and villians who themselves have been victims and have taken a darker path to get past it, IS the focus of the book. Is that so bad? To have something DIFFERENT than every other bat-book out there? It seems to be a good thing for this focus given the books sales to date.

    If you don't like this focus then maybe this book isn't for you. As a suggestion maybe go read Batwoman instead, as this seems to be the type of book you and some others seem to be wanting to read, a book about an uber-efficient groin-buster who is removed from her emotions. I'd rather Batgirl retains it's current unique voice in the current choices of comics than become just another regular super hero book which is most of the other books DC is currently offering at this time.
    Last edited by batGRRRl4ever; 01-09-2013 at 10:06 AM. Reason: correct spelling
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  2. #32
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Don't like it, don't buy it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    I don't think that's fair. Constructive criticism (which the OP was) is never out of line.
    It's the same mindset as "America, love it or leave it". Terrible binary thinking that denies the option of "Like it, want it to be so much better."

    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    As a suggestion maybe go read Batwoman instead, as this seems to be the type of book you and some others seem to be wanting to read, a book about an uber-efficient groin-buster who is removed from her emotions.
    This is not even close to an accurate description of the Batwoman comic.
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  3. #33
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    I was disappointed in Captain Jim's response in that fashion, as I was making a constructive comment which through the chiding was deemed "out of line" I guess because of it's brevity. The irony was that that comment was itself a constructive criticism, IMO. However I have on more than one post now more thoroughly elucidated my points that if an individual does not like the very primary focus of a given title, in this case to explore the issues of victimization from a variety of involved parties at different points in time from those experiences, then why read that particular title when there are other bat-books without this emphasis?

    My point was hardly in the mere slightest a "love it or leave it" attitude, rather making the point as observed above that if one does not like a books PRIMARY focus, then why would one want to continue to read the title by changing that focus to make it another book entirely? And frankly based upon sales to date, why would DC change that focus to make it something more straightforward and generic, when the more intelligent and nuanced approach as is being applied by continuing writer Ms. Gail Simone is attracting and maintaining a well sold to audience?
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  4. #34
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    I've never seen the name of Batgirl as associated to Barbara Gordon being juvenile to anything. When I hear "Batgirl" I think of the woman who attained a Ph.D. and became a U.S. Congresswoman in an age it was incredibly rare for a woman to accomplish such feats. When I see the name of Batgirl now I see a woman who has worked to rise above a personal tragedy and use the experience to help others. I see the name of Batgirl as associated with Barbara Gordon as being subservient to no one and belonging to a woman who strives to make her own way, and who inspires others. That's what the name Batgirl has always meant to me at any rate.
    As has been pointed out by more than one person talking about the changes in Barbara Gordon's character or personality , she is not the person who became Oracle or a Congresswoman any more, so it does not mean that in this version of her. I should have said that I meant the "girl" aspect rather than the whole name. If Peter Parker had been called Spiderboy he may never have been considered to be old enough to marry Mary-Jane. I realise that the name is part of what sells the character and there are alternative names that would cause problems or controversy, but I think that Barbara Gordon's potential for growth may be restricted by this.
    Last edited by Bluebow; 01-09-2013 at 11:36 AM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    I'm still not sure if we were supposed to care about Ricky or not. I know I didn't.
    I think Batgirl was supposed to care about him.

  6. #36
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    As has been pointed out by more than one person talking about the changes in Barbara Gordon's character or personality , she is not the person who became Oracle or a Congresswoman any more, so it does not mean that in this version of her.
    To which I firmly pointed out a few times in terms of speaking about Batgirl in the current sense from issue #1 of the New 52 onwards, in the second part of the very paragraph your referencing for your point. But there have been some posters thus far who ARE comparing the New 52 Barbara to the previous iteration of character known as oracle, and who admit that this previous iteration is influencing how they are judging this current interpretation of character and are not just simply judging the character from the current issue #1 onwards.
    Pull list:
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  7. #37
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    Perhaps there should be a new poll- Should Batgirl be limited to stories about victimization?

    That is a terribly narrow vision for this book and makes Barbara a few limited and stagnant character. By dwelling on the act the hurt her, by not growing past it, she is remaining a victim of the Joker and he will always have power over her. By not overcoming, even if this title is about victimization, it doesn't express a very good message for how victims can take control of their lives and find happiness. Let The Killing Joke be a part of her history, even a defining one, but centering the book on those events will cripple the character more than Joker did.
    Chill!

  8. #38
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    To which I firmly pointed out a few times in terms of speaking about Batgirl in the current sense from issue #1 of the New 52 onwards, in the second part of the very paragraph your referencing for your point. But there have been some posters thus far who ARE comparing the New 52 Barbara to the previous iteration of character known as oracle, and who admit that this previous iteration is influencing how they are judging this current interpretation of character and are not just simply judging the character from the current issue #1 onwards.
    I would agree that it can be difficult to separate past and present versions of the character from both sides of the argument, but up to a certain point in time they were the same person , I think it is not unreasonable to think that they would share character and personality traits up to a point, even though the new situation means from that point onwards they would begin to diverge, they would not become totally different people.

  9. #39
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    Perhaps there should be a new poll- Should Batgirl be limited to stories about victimization?

    That is a terribly narrow vision for this book and makes Barbara a few limited and stagnant character. By dwelling on the act the hurt her, by not growing past it, she is remaining a victim of the Joker and he will always have power over her. By not overcoming, even if this title is about victimization, it doesn't express a very good message for how victims can take control of their lives and find happiness. Let The Killing Joke be a part of her history, even a defining one, but centering the book on those events will cripple the character more than Joker did.
    Which is why after the current issue I believe it is the plan to put the emphasis around TKJ behind her, but of course not the recovery afterward, which is still to be addressed and a separate issue of overcoming assault and victimization. And I keep being confused by the readers who state that Batgirl is a victim, she WAS a victim who now uses the emotions from that experience to attempt to help others and to reach emotionally hurt villains on a level that the likes of Batman etc. just aren't capable of. That's STRENGTH, that's GROWTH, and that's taking CONTROL.
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  10. #40
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    But see what was the reason for that? Was there another way that could have been done? Did it have to be that situation? That's what is driving me a bit bonkers about this. It's like the recent incident with the Joker and her mother. What was the point of cutting off her mother's finger? To make it harder for babs? Yes it upset her but the situation was already bad, it didn't need to get that much worse.
    I didn't like that scene with the Joker and her mother, but I really don't like a violently demented [Texas Chainsaw] Joker anyways.

    How does seeing someone get in danger gain you willpower. I would think that Babs, living the life she has till now, would already know about gaining will power and not put Ricky in that situation.

    By the way I hope we're not going to see a Phantom of the Opera type situation here where Ricky is going to "fall in love" with Batgirl and try to win her over.
    Willpower was a poor choice of words on my part. I basically mean she got an adraneline rush to have the strenght she didn't have regularly. As for the life she lives, I think it's important to remember that this Batgirl is VERY MUCH a rookie, given this new universe is 5 years old she has maybe 1 and half years of heroing experience tops, and really the first year and the other half of experience are spaced out between retirement and handicap. The story is trying to build her up before we start seeing her on the levels of the more veteran heroes.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    ... even the name "Batgirl" does factor into this, suggesting a juvenile status and someone that is assumed to still need training or experience to be on a level with other characters. That is an advantage with character names that are not age related. Obviously the name is unlikely to change, but assumptions about it could.
    I have been reading DC for a while now, and in terms of DC's use of "girl" I disagree with your assessment of it. I think of Power Girl, Hawkgirl, Saturn Girl -- all of whom are at the top of their game. Why should Batgirl be considered lesser than a Batwoman, especially since Batgirl has been around longer in continuity? If Batgirl and Batwoman worked together (like the 1956 Batwoman and 1961 Bat-Girl did), I could see how you would think that, but as it stands, I don't get your reasoning. I suspect you are more inferring a limited meaning of "girl" in terms of superheroes than DC is implying it.
    "If God is the answer, the wrong question has been asked."

  12. #42
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Huntress/Bertinelli was just another gruff take no prisoners character not unlike Batwoman as I described in my previous post.
    And I miss her so much!
    *sniff*

  13. #43
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrightnow View Post
    I have been reading DC for a while now, and in terms of DC's use of "girl" I disagree with your assessment of it. I think of Power Girl, Hawkgirl, Saturn Girl -- all of whom are at the top of their game. Why should Batgirl be considered lesser than a Batwoman, especially since Batgirl has been around longer in continuity? If Batgirl and Batwoman worked together (like the 1956 Batwoman and 1961 Bat-Girl did), I could see how you would think that, but as it stands, I don't get your reasoning. I suspect you are more inferring a limited meaning of "girl" in terms of superheroes than DC is implying it.
    I did a very brief search and found that Hawkgirl is sometimes known as Hawkwoman, I could not find a woman equivalent of the others, so I do think that the point holds up if both exist at the same time.

  14. #44
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Which is why after the current issue I believe it is the plan to put the emphasis around TKJ behind her, but of course not the recovery afterward, which is still to be addressed and a separate issue of overcoming assault and victimization. And I keep being confused by the readers who state that Batgirl is a victim, she WAS a victim who now uses the emotions from that experience to attempt to help others and to reach emotionally hurt villains on a level that the likes of Batman etc. just aren't capable of. That's STRENGTH, that's GROWTH, and that's taking CONTROL.
    O. . . K . . . Soooooo . . . Batman, whose parents were murdered in front of him when he was a child knows nothing about being a victim? That tragedy has shaped his live and driven him in what he does but Batman stories don't dwell on that experience. They bring it up a lot, sure, but victimization is not his theme. I mean, come on, everyone in the Bat family has a tragic past and one of the thing that bothers me about Batgirl is she doesn't realize that and let her friends give her the support she needs, which is a bad example for victims- pushing those who care about you away.


    And her recovery is yet to be addressed!?! How mainy years will it take Gail to go through all the stages of grief until she gets to acceptance and recovery?

    I think many more of us care about barbara Gordon than you think and we see this character being held back and doing stupid things that are going to get her killed and want her to be the strong example-setting woman she should be.

    This whole theory that she knows more about being a victim than other members of the Bat family makes no sense and centering the book on being a victim rather than over-coming tragedy to find purpose and happiness in life again hurts readers and may even be offensive to other sufferers of tragic events.
    Chill!

  15. #45
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    I'm speaking about Batgirl's ability to emotionally connect and empathize with others, which is an ability Batman distinctively lacks. How many times has it been said that Batman holds everyone he loves at bay, etc.? And I notice you state that Barbara is still a victim in the present tense when you stated "centering the book on being a victim" when in fact she experienced that in the past but is working past it, but also uses the feelings she had from that time to strengthen her ability to connect with current victims of crime and perpetrators of crime who also were once victimized. This as I said before is NOT weakness, it is STRENGTH, it is CONTROL, and it shows emotional COURAGE. And that is something I look forward to reading more of for a long time to come as apparently Ms. Simone is now "bullet proof".
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

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