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  1. #16
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Why would she need to gain that will power? Shouldn't she already have seen that Kightfall and her thugs were a dangerous bunch of charaters?
    Tragedies and bad situations move heroes foward all the time. Obviously Barbara knew they were a bad bunch, but she didn't get to see the full extent of their cruelty until she saw what they did to Ricky.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Ricky's mutilation was needed (in the context of the story) for Barbara to have the willpower to fight Knightfall and her thugs.
    They could have hit her on the back of the head and took him or kidnapped him from Hospital. It seems that she is being written a little like Misfit was in Birds of Prey, sometimes allowed to shine to a certain degree, but not being treated like one of the grown-ups.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Tragedies and bad situations move heroes foward all the time. Obviously Barbara knew they were a bad bunch, but she didn't get to see the full extent of their cruelty until she saw what they did to Ricky.
    His only reason for existing was so that Batgirl could understand how bad the bad guys were? Still, on the plus side he did get a kiss from her later, so maybe things are looking up for him now.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Tragedies and bad situations move heroes foward all the time. Obviously Barbara knew they were a bad bunch, but she didn't get to see the full extent of their cruelty until she saw what they did to Ricky.
    You realise that if Ricky had of been a "Rebecca" and "Barbara" had of been a "Bob", then it probably would have been a classic example of a "Women in Refrigerators". Female character suffers violence in order to create drama for the Male Character. In this case the genders were simply reversed. Don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming some ridiculous "Men in Refrigerators" or anything, but setting up one character to be victimised solely to create drama for another character is fairly lazy stuff. Especially when its done again and again.

    Barbara Gordon used to be an awesome example of triumph over adversity. Oracle was never a victim; she was a hero. A hero who was Justice League level (ie a Top Tier hero in terms of her in-universe importance). Unfortunately Barbara Gordon now is a walking victim surrounded by stories of victimisation. It wouldn't be so bad if the themes of her suffering/recovering from her injury were actually properly explored in depth (eg maybe she develops PTSD or some other mental illness) but it just seems that it's treated as "Oh I was paralysed but now I'm better lol. Except sometimes I feel bad about it lol".
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  5. #20
    New Member BatWatch's Avatar
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    I actually was not planning on posting this article here, but a guy on another forum asked me to share it so here it is. I replied to a bunch of comments, but I don't have time to get to everybody's. Sorry. Know that I will read them all even if I do not respond, and I appreciate everybody sharing their thoughts with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I give you one out of the three. The first I am on record to agreeing with, our Daredoll needs a job. Hopefully she'll be getting a job related to that forensic psychology degree soon.

    As to the second, your wearing "oracle" rimmed glasses and comparing a character who was 5-7 yrs older than the current Babs and who was also purposely characterized to become an armchair general and computer hacker type to compensate for the fact she couldn't do anything physical, which of course Batgirl can do in spades. Barbara is now 22 yrs old (I added one year as at the start of the new 52 she was 21 but it's on record it's been a year since the Joker tore his face off), and that is simply being at a different place in one's life in one's early 20's from their mid to later 20's.

    As to the third, well that's the theme of the book. Don't like it, don't buy it. There are MORE than enough in readership that are very much enjoying the very rich and nuanced situation that Barbara faces as a former victim who fights with compassion for other victims both good and bad. Further, Batgirl USES her fear to be present in the situation and to make the best, and hopefully most compassionately possible choice. This is something DIFFERENT that Gail is showing the readers and the readers are responding to. If you want an uber-determined groin-breaker that isn't so introspective there's always, you know, Batwoman to go read instead.
    At least we can agree on one. (grins)

    As far as Oracle rimmed glasses, that is true. I can't help but compare Barbara's current incarnation to her previous one, but I understand that others are not so clingy to continuity. Personally, I do not like many continuity changes, but I can accept changes to a character's history more easily than I can accept changes to a character's character. I don't feel like this is even the same character as featured prior to Flashpoint. If you are okay with that, that's your prerogative, but this character is not the same in my book, and she is inferior in almost every way.

    Regarding the age thing, that is what does not track with me. I can see pre-Flashpoint Barbara being a little older but not much. The DC wikia for Barbara Gordon says that pre-Flashpoint Barbara was also nineteen when she was crippled. We know comic book time lines vary from case to case, but by my own personal time line, there were about five years from Barbara's crippling to the end of the DCU. The life of Tim Drake backs this up as he was thirteen when he took the mantle of Robin (about two years real time after Barbara's death) and he was seventeen when the DCU ended. Again, about five years since two years in comic book time is rarely viewed as two years real time. By that math, Oracle was probably twenty-four at the end of the DCU. Current Babs is probably twenty-two possibly twenty-three if you take it as a year past the beginning of the DCNU. She would be twenty-two without it since nineteen plus three equals twenty-two. Anyway, you are talking about a max of two years. Therefore, saying Babs is much younger does not explain away her lack of maturity. It may be a small factor, but not much.

    I much prefer Batwoman, but I also enjoy Batgirl of late. It was only the early stuff that was bad. Making suggestions on how a book can improve is not meant as a put down but just a friendly suggestion.

    I don't see how fear makes Batgirl any more �present,� nor do I think it is even right to call her reaction fear. Any hero who does not have fear while dealing with a life threatening situation is reckless. Rather, a hero needs to have control of his or her fear. Babs, at times, does not. Again, I see it sad to see a character regressed/completely altered for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Those 3 things would be an improvement.
    Thanks. Glad for the support.

    If you like my thoughts, I hope you will check out my site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    Become more consistant and show lasting development of skills and attitude. I can understand her being nervous and having rusty skills at first and her dealings with The Joker are a special case, but her competence and approach to dealing with situations is too up and down seemingly dependant on the people and situations she is confronted with more than her own abilities. It seems that she loses or gains ability more than some opponents are tougher than others.
    Yeah, I can see what you mean. However, it appears that Babs' ever changing fighting prowess stems from her emotional insecurities rather than actual ability. Every time she has struggled, she has been undergoing emotional stress from the situation. It is like she freezes up. Honestly, I am okay with that for the moment, but if she continues to be hampered with it in the future, that really indicates that she does not need to be in the field. She shouldn't really be in the field now, but I can understand giving it a try, but if she keeps panicking, she is going to get herself or some innocent hurt.

    Now Nightwing, on the other hand, seems to have taken a major physical stumble in the DCNU due to convenient writing. He doesn't have PTSD as an excuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    I agree with #'s 1 and 3, but you do realize that Barbara is even younger now than she's EVER been as Batgirl or Oracle. Of course Oracle was cool, calm, and analytical...she was an experienced hero and like 30. This new Batgirl is 22 and had only been an active hero for one year prior to retiring and getting shot.
    That is a very good point that Barbara had more time as Batgirl in the DCU, but as I said above to BatGrrrl, the math does not really work out for Babs to be thirty. Even if Babs was much younger than her DCU version, which she is not, I still do not see a reason to make her this insecure.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I agree that she needs to get a job and I'd also like to see her mature as the series progresses. It was fine for Babs to be rusty at first since she had been retired from superheroing and has only recently gotten the use of her legs back but I do feel like it's time we start seeing her getting back into the swing of things and I think we also should be seeing her learning from her mistakes in the field. I don't mean that I expect her to bring her "A" game in all situations but I would like to see her up her game a bit now starting with evading attacks a bit more often.
    Agreed. It makes sense that it would be a slow progression for Babs to get her skills back, but I am more concerned about her mental and emotional abilities than I am her physical prowess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    I'm Seattle Freeze and I support the openning message.

    I would add to #2 that she just needs to act smarter. I understand she lost some years and her experience as Oracle but Babs can still be computer smart and skilled at researching persons and situations before jumping into a fight. Not only would her having a skill set make her relatable, it would show what she brings to the bat family.


    Yes. Yes it is. If not, you get yourself killed or beat senseless. Turning her back to Knightfall and getting stabbed in the back, that wasn't even a C game!
    So very true. I enjoyed the Knightfall arch, but that scene was extremely frustrating. Now quite as frustrating as MI6 opening up the super hacker's computer on to their system, but still, pretty frustrating. I will say an occasional slip up is acceptable, but I just don't feel like this Barbara is much of a thinker. Not to say she is dumb, but she is controlled by her emotion. Old Babs was definitely an NT Rational. If you are spending your time reflecting on how you feel in the midst of battle, you are probably about to die.

    I hope you will check out BatWatch.
    For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out Batwatch

  6. #21
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    They could have hit her on the back of the head and took him or kidnapped him from Hospital. It seems that she is being written a little like Misfit was in Birds of Prey, sometimes allowed to shine to a certain degree, but not being treated like one of the grown-ups.
    She's not one of the grown-ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    His only reason for existing was so that Batgirl could understand how bad the bad guys were? Still, on the plus side he did get a kiss from her later, so maybe things are looking up for him now.
    I'm still not sure if we were supposed to care about Ricky or not. I know I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_Dark View Post
    You realise that if Ricky had of been a "Rebecca" and "Barbara" had of been a "Bob", then it probably would have been a classic example of a "Women in Refrigerators". Female character suffers violence in order to create drama for the Male Character. In this case the genders were simply reversed. Don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming some ridiculous "Men in Refrigerators" or anything, but setting up one character to be victimised solely to create drama for another character is fairly lazy stuff. Especially when its done again and again.
    You're preaching to the choir with this one. I rarely (if ever) get involved in discussions involving women's treatment in comics.

    Barbara Gordon used to be an awesome example of triumph over adversity. Oracle was never a victim; she was a hero. A hero who was Justice League level (ie a Top Tier hero in terms of her in-universe importance). Unfortunately Barbara Gordon now is a walking victim surrounded by stories of victimisation. It wouldn't be so bad if the themes of her suffering/recovering from her injury were actually properly explored in depth (eg maybe she develops PTSD or some other mental illness) but it just seems that it's treated as "Oh I was paralysed but now I'm better lol. Except sometimes I feel bad about it lol".
    That was #3 on the OP. You'll notice I said I agreed with that one.

  7. #22
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    The job thing is really key here. It adds conflict, allows her to have more to do out of uniform and brings in a stable supporting cast. This really should have been a 1st or 2nd issue thing, it's that important. I am really puzzled as to why this has not been addressed yet.

    As for the victim criticism I don't really have a problem with it. Do I want this theme to go on forever? No, but it's an okay theme for a new book that sets it apart a bit from other books.
    Life looks better in black and white.

  8. #23
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    When she was introduced Babs was 25. Then she was made into a congresswoman. She was always significantly older than Knightwing. It was about 20 years before she began to be deaged to make her a viable love interest for him.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 01-08-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  9. #24
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Tragedies and bad situations move heroes foward all the time. Obviously Barbara knew they were a bad bunch, but she didn't get to see the full extent of their cruelty until she saw what they did to Ricky.
    But see what was the reason for that? Was there another way that could have been done? Did it have to be that situation? That's what is driving me a bit bonkers about this. It's like the recent incident with the Joker and her mother. What was the point of cutting off her mother's finger? To make it harder for babs? Yes it upset her but the situation was already bad, it didn't need to get that much worse.

    How does seeing someone get in danger gain you willpower. I would think that Babs, living the life she has till now, would already know about gaining will power and not put Ricky in that situation.

    By the way I hope we're not going to see a Phantom of the Opera type situation here where Ricky is going to "fall in love" with Batgirl and try to win her over.

  10. #25

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    All I want to see in Batgirl is new villains.

    I know Gail can deliver great villains from her Secret Six series; she can also updated bat-foes terrifically! If she doe update an existing adversary the s/he should become Barbara's exclusive opponent IMHO.

  11. #26
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed Gail's run but I do hope her leaving will see Batgirl grow in the manner she needs to because Babs bumbling along from battle to battle would have gotten old and unbelievable after much longer.
    Chill!

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    I have enjoyed Gail's run but I do hope her leaving will see Batgirl grow in the manner she needs to because Babs bumbling along from battle to battle would have gotten old and unbelievable after much longer.
    Gail Simone was "unfired" -- she's still the main writer on Batgirl.
    "If God is the answer, the wrong question has been asked."

  13. #28
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrightnow View Post
    Gail Simone was "unfired" -- she's still the main writer on Batgirl.
    Because DC realizes that Gail is connecting with the readership with her smart take on the subject of victimization, and how one reacts to it as it happens, how one can lash out from it in the form of the villians in the book, and how one like Batgirl can attempt to use compassion to help those in need from her own experiences to better connect with them. This is something that is different and stands out from all the other books, and it stymies me why some seem to just want the book simplified down into the standard super hero tropes of the kick-butt girl with superior attitude and closed off emotions who takes no prisoners in her fight upon crime. I mean that's Batwoman right? Why should Batgirl just copy that which is an option for readers that already exists? I will continue to enjoy this interesting take on the Batgirl title, and hope for the current and main theme of victimization and redemption to continue to be explored so deftly and intelligently in the title for many years to come under Ms. Simone's proverbial pen.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatWatch View Post
    I can't help but compare Barbara's current incarnation to her previous one, but I understand that others are not so clingy to continuity. I don't feel like this is even the same character as featured prior to Flashpoint. If you are okay with that, that's your prerogative, but this character is not the same in my book, and she is inferior in almost every way.
    I see it as the exact opposite. Before we had a woman who was bitter and closed off and who was becoming a copy of Bruce in many respects of his more negative attributes in personality. But now we have a Barbara who USES her fear to CONNECT with her emotions, and to connect with the people who she tries to save as well as even the one's she has to take down. She uses the experience of her prior victimization to explore that fear within her, to better be present in a given moment when needing to figure out the internal emotions of those around her while in her Batgirl identity. That is some seriously nuanced and smart writing that we simply aren't getting in any other title that is out there currently, IMO.
    Last edited by batGRRRl4ever; 01-09-2013 at 07:57 AM. Reason: add
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  14. #29
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    I think it has got too hung up on her "journey" and locked into her emotional state at certain moments. I also think and I know that I have said this before, that even the name "Batgirl" does factor into this, suggesting a juvenile status and someone that is assumed to still need training or experience to be on a level with other characters. That is an advantage with character names that are not age related. Obviously the name is unlikely to change, but assumptions about it could.

  15. #30
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Because DC realizes that Gail is connecting with the readership with her smart take on the subject of victimization
    As the opening poster says, I agree, she has taken the victim thread too far. Look at Huntress. She was a victim of rape at a young age and those experiences motivated her into her vigilante career but I wouldn't say those early experiences defined her nor did I ever see her talk about it all the time. Batgirl talks about her tragedy continually and seems to only interact with victims. Is that her role in Gotham? To only fight and rescue victims?

    The character needs to grow and rise above her tragedy. Otherwise the title should be renamed Batvictim.
    Chill!

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