Superman + Wonder Woman romance

[DochaDocha]

Personally speaking I am not sure how this is going to work out in terms of Wonder Woman eventually being Superman's ex. Assuming he gets together with Lois, he'll be leaving her every do to work with someone he slept with? To me that seems bizaare. Of course, I've only ever slept with the one woman.

What if Superman never does? Honest question.

[Anthony D]

As dumb an idea as this Superman/Wonder Woman storyline is, the "hero who works with a heroine who happens to be his ex" has been dealt with in comics before---see Thom Zahler's series "Love and Capes". There, a Superman-like hero, the Crusader (or Mark in his everyday identity), is dating/eventually marries a non-superpowered woman (Abby), while both deal with occasional visits with Mark's ex-girlfriend who he still works with, a Wonder Woman-like heroine. Yes, a very brief summary (among other things that happens in the series, which is great BTW), but all three (eventually) get along...

[dupersuper]

There's no "it's fine for now" option?

[Shadow Skill]

I see the haters vocal now. Honestly Clois seems like more the offensive pairing than Clana, these two are the most famous heroes in fiction. Wonder Woman as much as a badass she is needs to be more involved in the DC world than Greek world plus she gets more exposure than Batman at least if she's paired with Supes.

[DracoDracul]

No, if it was a ship of the two most famous DC heroes it would be Clark/Bruce. Wonder Woman's main claim to fame is being one of three heroes to see continuous print since the Golden Age which was propped up by the fact that originally they had to keep her in print or the trademark/copyright would revert to the Marston estate.

[misslane38]

Honestly Clois seems like more the offensive pairing than Clana

I'd like to know on what possible basis you have been able to come to such a conclusion.

these two are the most famous heroes in fiction.

Nope. I doubt it.

[DochaDocha]

As dumb an idea as this Superman/Wonder Woman storyline is, the "hero who works with a heroine who happens to be his ex" has been dealt with in comics before---see Thom Zahler's series "Love and Capes". There, a Superman-like hero, the Crusader (or Mark in his everyday identity), is dating/eventually marries a non-superpowered woman (Abby), while both deal with occasional visits with Mark's ex-girlfriend who he still works with, a Wonder Woman-like heroine. Yes, a very brief summary (among other things that happens in the series, which is great BTW), but all three (eventually) get along...

Hmmm, interesting series. I read the first third tonight since I apparently enjoy procrastinating. It's pretty funny. Only thing though is that the Amazonia character is nothing like Wonder Woman, as far as personalities go.

[jllonchas]

Honestly Clois seems like more the offensive pairing than Clana

How so?

these two are the most famous heroes in fiction. Wonder Woman as much as a badass she is needs to be more involved in the DC world than Greek world plus she gets more exposure than Batman at least if she's paired with Supes.

I agree that Diana needs more exposure--though I'd say she needs good exposure and not to simply be put into everything under the sun, but she doesn't need to be with Superman for that to happen. I quite enjoyed her in Batwoman.

[jllonchas]

As dumb an idea as this Superman/Wonder Woman storyline is, the "hero who works with a heroine who happens to be his ex" has been dealt with in comics before---see Thom Zahler's series "Love and Capes". There, a Superman-like hero, the Crusader (or Mark in his everyday identity), is dating/eventually marries a non-superpowered woman (Abby), while both deal with occasional visits with Mark's ex-girlfriend who he still works with, a Wonder Woman-like heroine. Yes, a very brief summary (among other things that happens in the series, which is great BTW), but all three (eventually) get along...

I keep hearing about this series and think I'm going to need to give it a try.

[davidgrantlloyd]

Lois Lane's role in the Superman mythology has always been as a love interest and occasional antagonist. Superman's suit is not unrecognizable and the Kents being dead is actually the more dominant mythological canon. Shifting the narrative so that Wonder Woman replaces Lois Lane as the dominant love interest for Superman is not even close to the same thing.

Yes it is. You just don't see it because you have a passionate investment in the Clois dynamic.

Then you are getting the message wrong. Don't make a straw man of my arguments just to be antagonistic.

Well, maybe if you didn't constantly backtrack and contradict yourself on a regular basis, your arguments wouldn't seem so frail.

Earth One hasn't even established that Lois knows,

Haven't you read volume 2

You cannot reconcile the classic mythic binaries without the triangle.

This is just another example of your inability to see outside an older, overused, (dare I say expired) way of perceiving the mythology.

Alan Moore loved the idea so much he used it in his own Superman pastiche, Supreme.

He was also fascinated by the concept of the SM/WW pairing so much that he outlined the would-be epic 'Twilight of the Superheroes', which (according only to some rumours and speculation) DC might be building an entire universe and/or franchise out of (the New 52)

The Superman/Lois love story is just as integral to Superman mythology as the Kents and Krypton. You can tell the story different ways, but if you erase it entirely you lose something important.

It's not like no one can study the 75 year history of Superman's evolution. When DC rebooted the universe, continuity, etc, they didn't go back and burn all the archives. The Lois thing can't ever be completely lost because it's been documented so much.

He wrote JLA: Classified in 2005. Here a few pages.

Thanks.

Remix is a great word. Myths that are remixed are subject to changes but not big enough changes to alter them entirely to create something new.

Variation is another word you might like then. You seem to embrace remix and variation of something that remains the same. Why don't you just come right out and say it? Change scares you (it's not like you'd be the first person afraid of change)

This idea that telling old stories in new ways for a new generation is boring and unprofitable doesn't seem to be backed up by much anecdotal evidence.

Well, now you know how it feels

If the outcome of a Superman story is the final message on the character on his mythology, then it cannot be altered beyond recognition. Not a single incarnation of Superman has come and gone without Superman experiencing a romance with Lois Lane.

You keep trying to have it both ways. You keep insinuating that things can change but they really can't change, and that you welcome change but that you don't want change.

Working together with other heroes with their own mythologies enriches a myth. However, Superman's mythology is unique as is Wonder Woman's. Their creators did not create them with the intention that those universes should mesh. Superman's mythological themes do not match Wonder Woman's themes. Her mission does not complement his mission. Superman's myth is a story about science and identity whereas Wonder Woman's myth is wrapped up in magic and gender relations. Steve Trevor complements Diana because through his relationship with Diana he -- a man of war -- learns the value of submission and peace. Lois Lane complements Clark because with her the lonely alien cements his bond with a representative of Earth who loves and accepts him for who he is. As soon as you start messing with myths outside the occasional crossover, the myth unravels.

We've mentioned the Superman mythology, the Wonder Woman mythology ... what about the DC Universe mythology. As I said before, once the DC heroes began existing and interacting in a shared universe, a more complex and intricate mythology was created; the possibilities (for some potential modern classics) it brings about shouldn't be held back simply because of some traditional view of how each character functions in their own self-contained origins and environments.

Who knows? Maybe if each DC character still remained in their own self-contained universes, I might agree with the stand you're taking. But the reality is, The DC Universe Mythology has a right to explore all of it's complexities to the fullest of their potential without being blocked (even imprisoned) by old-fashioned ways purely for the glorification of out-of-touch traditions.

Have Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come become the accepted status quo?

No but they're considered classics that are standing the test of time and still being rediscovered and enjoyed today. If your opposition to changing and innovating old status quos (like what is being done in the New 52) were followed, then the potential "Next Big Thing" (as they say) like the examples I mentioned may never eventuate. I believe taking risks is worth it for the sake of getting some more potential classics.

Just for kicks: Did you know how World of New Krypton would end?

I wasn't reading much DC then. Mostly Independents.

What you call innovation, I call destruction.

And that's all either of us have proven on this topic. You're the Conservative. I'm the Progressive. You're Old School. I'm New Blood.

[Francisco]

No, if it was a ship of the two most famous DC heroes it would be Clark/Bruce. Wonder Woman's main claim to fame is being one of three heroes to see continuous print since the Golden Age which was propped up by the fact that originally they had to keep her in print or the trademark/copyright would revert to the Marston estate.

Wonder Woman is just as famous as Superman and Batman. She's aN icon on their same level. You'll be hard pressed to find a place in the world where she isn't known.
In my country when you want to prize a female for her bravery/dedication/proffesionalism you call her a Wonder Woman. Not Lois Lane not Lana Lang not Black Widow not Elektra... Wonder Woman!! MUJER MARAVILLA!!

[thepenguin]

I would hope that Superman does not 'date' a whole lot of different women from the hero community. That would just be weird.

Personally speaking I am not sure how this is going to work out in terms of Wonder Woman eventually being Superman's ex. Assuming he gets together with Lois, he'll be leaving her every do to work with someone he slept with? To me that seems bizaare. Of course, I've only ever slept with the one woman.

Of course it is possible to move on from an ex and you and your current partner is fine with her. It happens all the time in real life and it happens all the time when couples divorce and maintain an amicable relationship. It's just like when people move on from a former relationship or get over crushes. Just because you had one woman in your life does not mean everyone is like you. It is not something unthinkable for people to have more than one sexual partner in their lifetime. Especially ones who are going to have long lifespans. It's like saying I hope Diana does not date alot of men from the hero community. Now be it hero or civilian, it still is a different person. I find this thinking a little judgmental. If a relationship is written well, then in my mind they can date who they want. Not all relationships have to be sexual either.

Now can Clark and a current partner have a good relationship with an ex? I guess he can. Didn't he have a sexual relationship with Lana and then hooked up with Lois in Smallville? Mind you, the minute Lana shows up, one could argue he was still hung up on her and it took the writers to write her out and never have her around for that to happen. He and Lois as a couple never had to cope with the elephant (Lana) in the room on an ongoing basis to see if he had truly moved on. Watching a photo is just telling us but never showing us. Now Clark and Lois' current relationship is that of friends and former co workers, and she does not know his secrets. It's not exactly her business right now and he never had anything with her. Having a crush on a person is not the same as being in a relationship. So Clark having to be in a room with friend Lois and them coping with Diana in my mind is not an issue. At all. Now if he moved on with Lois and then told Lois about Diana then the writers can show them getting along. Pre Flashpoint they were seen to get along and Lois even knew her husband spent 1000 years (terrible story as it was) with Diana. A woman he fancied and fantasized about once. But they all seem to come to terms with it.

Clark knows Diana had a relationship with Steve. Was it sexual too? Don't know. Don't think it matters. Clark is not wringing his hands over the fact she did. Nor is he judging her ability to move on. In fact he is not comparing himself to Steve or how he measures up. Steve on the other hand. He would have his issues since he is still hung up over her and in the books it is clear Steve is antagonistic towards the JL no matter what he pretends to be. He was only in the position for Diana. He does not really care for the rest of them. The Free Comic Book day issue confirms that as well as what Steve is doing behind their backs wheeling and dealing to build another team.

And I think even if Superman and Diana breaks up, there will be some DC writers who will reference current relationship to continue to keep sexual tension no matter who he is with. They would be silly not to. The on/off thing is a typical writers device. I can see it especially in JL title. Because I doubt DC would rush to marry either heroes off to anyone too soon.

[ssupes]

I am going to vote yes on this post because while i did like the lois lane ship (heck when watching smallville i was praying for the day they came together and knock lana out of the picture) i always felt that she ties superman to simpler stories which I don't like. I mean Scott lobdell sums it up best when he says the great thing about superman stories is that he can do anything and go anywhere.
Not to say that superman didn't do this with lois sometimes but it's like the justice league animated show, which was great but they struggled and almost ignored the greater JLA villains because they struggled to keep batman relevent. In essence lois lane is the batman of the superman comics which is great to empathise with the people who struggle with the science fiction thatbut i would like to see more science fiction which he could have with wonder woman.
I'm not saying lois isn't relevent to superman comics but with wonder woman he can do more and these charcters can relate with each other on a level that lois and her fans can't. It's like the end of superman 2 where lois admits that she can't deal with the fact that she has to share superman with the world.
This may not be the best argument in the world but thats the way i feel about it and why i am enjoying the prospect of the relationship.

[misslane38]

Now can Clark and a current partner have a good relationship with an ex? I guess he can. Didn't he have a sexual relationship with Lana and then hooked up with Lois in Smallville? Mind you, the minute Lana shows up, one could argue he was still hung up on her and it took the writers to write her out and never have her around for that to happen. He and Lois as a couple never had to cope with the elephant (Lana) in the room on an ongoing basis to see if he had truly moved on. Watching a photo is just telling us but never showing us.

More than just the photo/scrapbook scene in Season 9' "Rabid" illustrated Clark getting over Lana. In that seasons's finale "Salvation" Clark told Lois that all his life he had "relationships that ended too soon" but realized when she came back into his life at the beginning of the year, "she was the one he always needed." This was a direct parallel to a scene in the same location a year earlier in "Instinct" when Clark asked Lois, "What happens if my soul mate comes along and I'm too blind to see it?" and Lois answered, "When the right girl walks into your life, you'll know." In "Salvation" Clark also had a dream that he and Lois were married in the future. The following season's "Homecoming" took him to that future where he confirmed being with Lois was a "dream come true." That episode was also significant because it explicitly addressed the Lana issue.

When Lois and Clark arrive at the high school reunion, Lois sees Lana's name tag and calls her an "old flame" while recalling the last time she saw Lana was when she interrupted the kiss she and Clark were about to have at Chloe's wedding. Later, after Brainiac 5 has taken Clark on a Christmas Carol trip through his life, Clark has a front row seat to a reunion attendee known as Punchbowl Maddie who is a stand in for people like you who question Clark's love for Lois. Maddie tells Lois that Lana was perfect and that you never get over your first love. "So, you're the moth not the flame," she says, reiterating the old flame idea Lois had mentioned earlier. Clark overhears this entire conversation and rolls his eyes throughout. When he returns fully to the present, he is determined to show Lois and the audience that she is the woman he loves and that he is over Lana. How does he do it? He recreates the dance in the barn from Chloe's wedding that Lana had interrupted (and Lois had referenced earlier), tells Lois he loves her, and he floats/flies for the first time while conscious and fully himself.

In the next episode "Isis" Clark is challenged to demonstrate his love even further. The goddess Isis possesses Lois and threatens to unleash the underworld for the sake of reuniting with her soul mate, Osiris. When Clark confronts her, Isis challenges him about his feelings for Lois by comparing her dedication to Osiris to Clark's to Lois. What she says also echoes the situation with Lana because, as Isis explains, she waited lifetimes to be reunited with Osiris after cruelly being separated from him. Since Clark obviously didn't wait for Lana his loyalty pales in comparison. Moreover, Isis tells Clark that "true love is worth any sacrifice" and she says so after noting that Clark had yet to risk his whole heart for Lois by not sharing his secret with her. Like "Homecoming" Clark comes away from this experience determined to prove to himself and Lois that she is his true love, so he tells her his secret in the final scene in the episode. When he does, he tells Lois it "would be risking everything" but it's the "only way they could share a life together" and there "is no one else he'd want to take that leap with."

Next came "Ambush," which is the episode where Clark faces off with Lois' father General Lane. While under an interrogation, Clark declares his love for Lois saying to Sam, "Lois and I belong together. I love your daughter, and there's not a day that goes by that I don't want to be with her." The next significant episode on this journey was "Luthor" in which Clark is transported to a mirror Earth with another Lois. He seeks out her help so he can get back to his Lois, and when he does he reveals to the audience that Lois "can always tell when [he's] lying." She can "see through him--right to [his] soul, [his] heart" and he can't "live in a world where [she] doesn't love [him]." After successfully switching places with his mirror self, Clark Luthor, Clark is faced with his friends ready to attack him believing he is that monster version of himself. He begs Lois to look into his eyes and confirm it is the real him, and she does, validating Clark's words that Lois can see through him to his soul and heart. Given this, we know that Clark always means the declarations of love he makes to Lois.

Finally, the entire point of Season 10 was to challenge Clark to his soul. Darkseid was uniquely suited to this task because, as Kara and others explained that season, he and his minions are spiritual beings that are capable of finding and exploiting any "morsel of doubt" in one's heart. Doubts of this nature were described as regrets about the past or fears about the future among other things. Therefore, when Clark faces off with one of Darkseid's henchman, Desaad, in "Masquerade" it is quite revealing about the state of his feelings toward Lois versus Lana. First, the reason Clark finds Desaad is because he had kidnapped Clark's friend and Lois' cousin Chloe Sullivan. While Desaad tortures Chloe's soul with the aims of breaking it, he discovers he can still use Chloe's desire for Clark against her; hence we see a demon Clark tempt Chloe with a kiss. By contrast, when Clark arrives to save Chloe and confront Desaad his soul searching power realizes he cannot do the same to him. He tells Clark he is "incorruptible" because of "the love in [his] heart." In a prior confrontation with a Darkseid minion (Granny Goodness in "Abandoned"), Granny tempted Clark with the removal of painful memories of those who he'd loved and lost. Clark defied Granny and saved himself because he said he had no pain or regrets about those losses; this includes the loss of Lana.

There were other moments in the show that addressed this issue as well. In Season 9's "Warrior," for instance, Clark and Zatanna talk about the idea of sparks and flames that would become more prominent in Season 10. Clark tells Zatanna that his past relationship with Lana has made him afraid to give in to the passion and love he now feels for Lois because when he did that with Lana, he "got burned." The theme of that episode was about dreams and fantasy--symbolized by the putting on of suits and costumes that very clearly is meant to echo Lana's power suit from Season 8. The first meeting Clark and Lana had after she'd put on the suit had him say to her that it was "a dream" and "dreams don't come true." Flash forward to "Warrior" and he realizes he's not going to let his relationship with Lana hold him back from Lois anymore, telling Lois, "my dream is this with you, Lois."

The next season's "Shield," showed Clark telling Cat Grant that where Cat had thought she'd found her Prince Charming she could live happily ever after with, he had found that in Lois. A few episodes later in "Harvest," Clark does what he'd never done with Lana and makes love with his powers after telling Lois that "he wants Lois to know him completely with no secrets, because [she's] the one and always [would] be." Later that season they get engaged and at their bachelor/bachelorette party, Clark declares to Lois and all their friends that Lois is "the love of his life" who he'd want to marry in 5 years or 20 years because, like he said a year ago in "Escape," for her he can wait forever. Clark and the show dealt with the Lana issue repeatedly. When you have a soul searching entity like Darkseid declare your soul free from doubt and corruption, that means Clark didn't have pain or doubts related to the end of his relationship with Lana. He walked down the aisle with Lois fully and truly in love with her.

ETA: Please enjoy some visual aids and quotes courtesy of the interwebs.

[DracoDracul]

Wonder Woman is just as famous as Superman and Batman. She's aN icon on their same level. You'll be hard pressed to find a place in the world where she isn't known.
In my country when you want to prize a female for her bravery/dedication/proffesionalism you call her a Wonder Woman. Not Lois Lane not Lana Lang not Black Widow not Elektra... Wonder Woman!! MUJER MARAVILLA!!

I'm not saying she's not famous, but she's at best fourth in terms of being well known behind Superman, Batman and Spider-Man at the very, very least. If you mean the two most popular heroes that when shipped yield a heterosexual couple, I'll give you that as most of the other famous heroines are either derived from male heroes (Supergirl, Batgirl) or are more closely associated with a team than as solo heroes (Sue Storm, Jean Grey).