Superman + Wonder Woman romance

[Godstaff]

As for the "incorrect canon facts", I've never used anything of the sort. I've only posted my views on the Superman-Wonder Woman relationship, pointing out why I like it better. Yeah, I like it more than the Superman/Lois relationship. Shocking. So what? OTOH, YOU have systematically tried to debunk my VIEWS on this relationship, trying to convince me with the, again, so-called "blunt truths" that the SM/WW relationship isn't the best, and that Superman HAS to end up with Lois. You can say that you have never said that, but a few of us here know different.

As for the blunt truths, yes, it is a fact that Clark and Lois have been an item for almost 75 years, as is a fact that they were married, and that they had great moments together. I don't deny it. And I've never said that Lois was a bad character, and that the S/L pairing was crap. I actually have said that I liked it. But you can't use that - what happened before, i.e. THE PAST - to INVALIDATE what is happening now, i.e. THE PRESENT. That is, the fact that Clark and Lois were together does not invalidate the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. And there's a reason why more than a few people like this pairing, and why there are tons of fan art, websites and fan fics, whether you like it or not. There are people who simply like it. And that's the nature of the beast. There's no "science" in liking certain aspects of comic books, or the whole thing for that matter.

I'm not criticizing Lois as a character. But you are intent in getting her into every single Superman/Wodner Woman conversation, trying to show everyone that she's better for Clark than Diana. And while you have some solid arguments, I'll give you that, the Superman/Wondy supporters - short or long-term - have some pretty good points, too. You are a big LL fan, we get it. And that's your right.

Now, if someone says that the Lois character is crap (and that's is NOT me), then first I would ask why before pointing out facts that prove the reasons cited by that poster are not supported by facts. In that aspect you have done a wonderful job, I admit. Lois can be annoying at times, but all in all she's a great character who deserves to be written well, and to be developed. Like I said, I like Lois. Whoever, there are people who do NOT like her, and that's their right. The right you have to like her is the same they have to NOT like her.

I think I was the first (or one of the first) people to tell you not to take things that seriously. What you are doing here is, simply put, killing the fun in posting in comic-book forums. Because, whether you believe it or not, most people do this for fun. It is one thing to express your views in a respectful, non-condescending manner, another is to do the exact opposite AND ON TOP OF THAT do so trying to shove what you THINK is "the truth" down the throats of people who think different than you.

So, in short, be careful with what you say, misslane. I'm getting tired of your condescending speech.

You can reply if you wish, I won't read it. I'm getting out of this thread.

Je vous salue, Master of Puppets. Even if you're already out of the thread.

[brettc1]

Well, Brett, this is what happens when you put up polls, dear.


Now as a member of the collaborative sm/ww tumblr, yes we did put up a link. Our tumblr is linked directly into our twitter feed and you can see the time it went up. Would have been late last evening/night. We could have done it from the time Brett posted his poll ( I am not sure when that was exactly but it was yesterday morning I think?) but we did not go rushing off to rally troops. It was only when links cropped up on tumblr and twitter and thought, well why not? It is sm/ww related. And can I say we never claimed to have thousands of followers? We have exactly right now 1590 and many of them are not sm/ww shippers. We are not so fortunate to get thousands of reblogs. We reblog and perhaps help in getting some images faved or reblogged and don't flatter ourselves we cause all that. We do have many people who love WW or love SM or just comics and yes we also have followers who love the sm/ww pairing as seen by our reblogging of others. Some of them like it due to the new 52, while others have liked it before, some even like it because of the Young Justice cartoon. And we post up images more than anything. Sometimes opinion or answer questions. We try to keep it fun than bemoan the evils of comics and DC.

I have been posting on here off and on for a few years and nothing about my opinion has changed. I see others share that same sentiment too who have been here before the poll went up. I mean there have been many polls on these MB over the years and everyone should be sleeping with Batman , icncluding Superman, if it was to be a popularity/pi$$ing contest. If it is a gimmick or just to keep Clois apart, well seems Superman mythos is starved and desperate to try anything then. I just hope the PTB give this a fair try while trying it and hope to enjoy it while we have it. I never dreamed they would even do it in canon. Multiverse yes. So it's all a plus for us they listened.

What can I say? I have posted polls before, and even posted links to polls before, but never have I heard of those links being circulated so widely.

And really its just a simple thing. Yes or No. I was surprised nobody had done it before. But perhaps everyone else had a better grasp of the results LOL.

I am not unhappy the poll is being linked in different places. I just didnt imagine it would generate quite so much interest

[OneOfAKind]

This! So much history from the beginning.

[hellacre]

What can I say? I have posted polls before, and even posted links to polls before, but never have I heard of those links being circulated so widely.

And really its just a simple thing. Yes or No. I was surprised nobody had done it before. But perhaps everyone else had a better grasp of the results LOL.

I am not unhappy the poll is being linked in different places. I just didnt imagine it would generate quite so much interest

You need to hang around these parts more often.

You will see on any thread that has the word sm/ww has generated er "interest" . LOL. In fact we sm/ww shippers should be flattered we are getting threads that seem to attract so much debate. Better than being a dead thread or one that is very much one sided and tends to get left behind. But much of it can be very very much like going around in circles. It causes a little frustration to the posters who just want to talk other stuff too. But hey it's a MB .

So stick around , and perhaps if you dare to read the SM comics (Diana might appear in Action, is definitely going to be in Superman) or just want to see what the fuss is about...you'll see how much more interesting it can get as sm/ww progresses.

[DochaDocha]

"I can't believe Superman fans are so sensitive about whom he dates."

- Twilight Fans.

[mackval]

can't believe it was made canon... i kinda liked the idea of supes and wondy together since superfriends. I wonder why people keep on spouting post crisis status quo as a reason for sm/ww pairing as bad... post-crisis and the new 52 are different stories so if DC just repeats the old stories again then why reboot at all? batman has a plethora of female characters paired with him ranging from catwoman to even lois lane, and yet no one complains when that happens... but if clark gets paired with another woman aside from lois lane, it's hell on earth?

[misslane38]

You take comics way too seriously. Justice League isn't trying to win you over with amazing metaphors about the human condition or the decline about America, it's about the coolness of batman and Aquaman teaming up. People should get over a relationship with will last about a year at best and stop writing essays about how it destroys Wonder Woman as a character because Marston didn't intend it. You're just getting worked up over nothing. NOTHING.

The fact that you have to comment and make fun of me and another fan (Mary229) tells me you're doing something more extreme than getting worked up over a fictional relationship or fiction in general. You're getting worked up over fans having opinions. We're all going to have different feelings and opinions and we're all free to express them and respond to them. I admit I have high standards for the stories I read, but honestly? The style of discussion I'm engaging in is one that has developed out of my very first foray into any online fandom and that was the Smallville fandom. For a show that people here like to tear down, roll their eyes at, and mock, there were often very thoughtful discussions and debates and the quality of characters and storylines were not just handwaved away because the show was just a CW soap with a sci-fi twist. I've never encountered more hostility to critical thinking than I have during my time here.

As for the "incorrect canon facts", I've never used anything of the sort. I've only posted my views on the Superman-Wonder Woman relationship, pointing out why I like it better. Yeah, I like it more than the Superman/Lois relationship. Shocking. So what? OTOH, YOU have systematically tried to debunk my VIEWS on this relationship, trying to convince me with the, again, so-called "blunt truths" that the SM/WW relationship isn't the best, and that Superman HAS to end up with Lois. You can say that you have never said that, but a few of us here know different.

I never said that I never argued in favor of Lois, and when I've responded to you it has been to been address not that you like the SM/WW relationship but "why [you] like it better." Reasoning can be critically analyzed, especially when it relies on certain assumptions or facts about the character. I welcome the same type of challenge to my views, but instead I typically get your kind of response which is when confronted with an opposing viewpoint to start playing the victim card.

That is, the fact that Clark and Lois were together does not invalidate the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. And there's a reason why more than a few people like this pairing, and why there are tons of fan art, websites and fan fics, whether you like it or not. There are people who simply like it. And that's the nature of the beast. There's no "science" in liking certain aspects of comic books, or the whole thing for that matter.

Having seen the material you describe, I think the differences in what that fanbase produces versus the other and what one likes over the other is telling (and that's all I'll ever be saying about that).

Now, if someone says that the Lois character is crap (and that's is NOT me), then first I would ask why before pointing out facts that prove the reasons cited by that poster are not supported by facts. In that aspect you have done a wonderful job, I admit. Lois can be annoying at times, but all in all she's a great character who deserves to be written well, and to be developed. Like I said, I like Lois. Whoever, there are people who do NOT like her, and that's their right. The right you have to like her is the same they have to NOT like her.

Fair enough. Where I come from is I often feel Lois Lane can be misunderstood. I have a quote from Jeph Loeb or Greg Rucka that says as much, so when I encounter someone who dislikes Lois I at least would like to provide my perspective on her so maybe I can help someone see her as I see her. Sometimes me doing that alone makes people defensive, which I understand, but I don't think it's depriving people their rights to like what they like to at least engage in a discussion about those likes and dislikes. Furthermore, disliking something and liking something are essentially the same thing which means whatever rights exist to express disliking something also apply to liking something.

I think I was the first (or one of the first) people to tell you not to take things that seriously. What you are doing here is, simply put, killing the fun in posting in comic-book forums. Because, whether you believe it or not, most people do this for fun. It is one thing to express your views in a respectful, non-condescending manner, another is to do the exact opposite AND ON TOP OF THAT do so trying to shove what you THINK is "the truth" down the throats of people who think different than you.

So, in short, be careful with what you say, misslane. I'm getting tired of your condescending speech.

You can reply if you wish, I won't read it. I'm getting out of this thread.

I was okay with your post until I reached the statement in bold. I don't know what you think you can do to me, but I don't appreciate being threatened for what really just amounts to me engaging people in discussions where I point out where I disagree with stated facts or logic or simply want to do what others have a right to do and explain my likes and dislikes. I understand that discussions can be fun, but not everything is going to be fun. There's a reason the term "shipping wars" exist. People are naturally prone to get emotionally caught up in relationships in comics perhaps more so than any other aspect of it because it's the emotional aspect of the story. It's the aspect of the story many of us can relate to most, since we're more likely to experience romance in our lives than epic heroism. Consequently, discussions about relationships tend to get serious and tend to arouse passions from every side.

Also, it takes two to have a discussion and to perpetuate it, so focusing on my role is only looking at one side of things because more often than not I'm on the defensive in conversations that began with someone making the first attack on Lois/Clois and those who prefer them. Usually, it's only when the posts get filled with thorough analysis on one side that these complaints about fun forum conversation come out. To me, it seems like a veiled way of running away from a discussion one doesn't like and trying to garner sympathy by playing the victim. That said, I understand it is possible to feel genuinely aggrieved, and if that's the case I do apologize. I do so reluctantly, though, because the fact that you felt you had to threaten me at the end of your post erased some of my capacity for magnanimity.

can't believe it was made canon... i kinda liked the idea of supes and wondy together since superfriends. I wonder why people keep on spouting post crisis status quo as a reason for sm/ww pairing as bad... post-crisis and the new 52 are different stories so if DC just repeats the old stories again then why reboot at all? batman has a plethora of female characters paired with him ranging from catwoman to even lois lane, and yet no one complains when that happens... but if clark gets paired with another woman aside from lois lane, it's hell on earth?

Do you mind linking or quoting the posts where this is happening? Because the arguments I and others have made here have addressed so much more than the Post-Crisis. So, if you let me know where I can read these Post-Crisis arguments, I'd really appreciate it.

[Rezo Inverse]

This couple is the best thing of The New 52!

[abhilegend]

I don't like it but I don't mind it. I know this is a temporary change not by the upcoming trinity war/booster's warnings but Geoff johns' formulatic writing. I don't know or don't care why there is so much uproar about this. In the meantime I have hundreds of comics which are about clark/lois like the wonderful Superman family and the likes. I do read the recent comics but SM/WW pairing bores me so I just zone those pages out of the memory. Comics should be for fun, not for being obsessing over and if you don't like something then don't read it.

[kylesgirl]

As for the "incorrect canon facts", I've never used anything of the sort. I've only posted my views on the Superman-Wonder Woman relationship, pointing out why I like it better. Yeah, I like it more than the Superman/Lois relationship. Shocking. So what? OTOH, YOU have systematically tried to debunk my VIEWS on this relationship, trying to convince me with the, again, so-called "blunt truths" that the SM/WW relationship isn't the best, and that Superman HAS to end up with Lois. You can say that you have never said that, but a few of us here know different.

As for the blunt truths, yes, it is a fact that Clark and Lois have been an item for almost 75 years, as is a fact that they were married, and that they had great moments together. I don't deny it. And I've never said that Lois was a bad character, and that the S/L pairing was crap. I actually have said that I liked it. But you can't use that - what happened before, i.e. THE PAST - to INVALIDATE what is happening now, i.e. THE PRESENT. That is, the fact that Clark and Lois were together does not invalidate the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. And there's a reason why more than a few people like this pairing, and why there are tons of fan art, websites and fan fics, whether you like it or not. There are people who simply like it. And that's the nature of the beast. There's no "science" in liking certain aspects of comic books, or the whole thing for that matter.

I'm not criticizing Lois as a character. But you are intent in getting her into every single Superman/Wodner Woman conversation, trying to show everyone that she's better for Clark than Diana. And while you have some solid arguments, I'll give you that, the Superman/Wondy supporters - short or long-term - have some pretty good points, too. You are a big LL fan, we get it. And that's your right.

Now, if someone says that the Lois character is crap (and that's is NOT me), then first I would ask why before pointing out facts that prove the reasons cited by that poster are not supported by facts. In that aspect you have done a wonderful job, I admit. Lois can be annoying at times, but all in all she's a great character who deserves to be written well, and to be developed. Like I said, I like Lois. Whoever, there are people who do NOT like her, and that's their right. The right you have to like her is the same they have to NOT like her.

I think I was the first (or one of the first) people to tell you not to take things that seriously. What you are doing here is, simply put, killing the fun in posting in comic-book forums. Because, whether you believe it or not, most people do this for fun. It is one thing to express your views in a respectful, non-condescending manner, another is to do the exact opposite AND ON TOP OF THAT do so trying to shove what you THINK is "the truth" down the throats of people who think different than you.

So, in short, be careful with what you say, misslane. I'm getting tired of your condescending speech.

You can reply if you wish, I won't read it. I'm getting out of this thread.

Dude the action is happening here . The general of her troops know it. Tell me who is going on the clois threads to argue with them? No one. I don't see much people who support sm/ww wasting their time there. Do you? People talk here and some desperately need an audience to preach.

[Godstaff]

beloved

[Ignilafan]

100% agreed; pretty much my thoughts as well. SM/WW bores me as well but reading what the DC bosses have said and the inside turmoil within the people there, I doubt it's a long-term thing, it's more a publicity stunt the way I see it really no foundation to it. Even though I stopped buying Superman comics, at least there's the new animated movie coming out and the Man of Steel movie, which will be seen by the millions worldwide and is much more mainstream with the folks out there, so I don't really care about the comics right now. So for the time being I'm cool with not buying any comics right now, and just wait till I actually like something.

[Ignilafan]

I don't like it but I don't mind it. I know this is a temporary change not by the upcoming trinity war/booster's warnings but Geoff johns' formulatic writing. I don't know or don't care why there is so much uproar about this. In the meantime I have hundreds of comics which are about clark/lois like the wonderful Superman family and the likes. I do read the recent comics but SM/WW pairing bores me so I just zone those pages out of the memory. Comics should be for fun, not for being obsessing over and if you don't like something then don't read it.

100% agreed; pretty much my thoughts as well. SM/WW bores me as well but reading what the DC bosses have said and the inside turmoil within the people there, I doubt it's a long-term thing, it's more a publicity stunt the way I see it really no foundation to it. Even though I stopped buying Superman comics, at least there's the new animated movie coming out and the Man of Steel movie, which will be seen by the millions worldwide and is much more mainstream with the folks out there, so I don't really care about the comics right now. So for the time being I'm cool with not buying any comics right now, and just wait till I actually like something.

[timberwolf]

Meh. DC have had decades to tell stories about Lois and Superman. We read about every imaginable storylines,situations, or adventures of them.

The New 52 is a perfect time to tell something different and pair Wonder Woman to Superman. I hope DC won't cop out and make this the status quo and milk it for all the stories it's worth, even if it means years and years to do it.

[brettc1]

I am wondering how folks are going to react when we find out a guy who can supposedly lift the planet does not make Wonder Woman as happy as an USAF Colonel with no super powers.

For the record I have no problem with Clark wanting Lois more. Love should be about...well, love actually. LOL