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  1. #196
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    If it was ashamed of being a Superman movie it would be more like Smallville.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Nope, it was your typical CW angst soap opera.
    Agreed. Really, it's the CW shows that seem to be the most ashamed of the source material -- with "Arrow" not wanting to be "Green Arrow" and the upcoming "Amazon" seemingly distancing itself from the name "Wonder Woman."

    I understand that Smallville was originally meant to be Clark's life before Superman, but it got really ridiculous when he's in Metropolis, meets Lois, meets other heroes (teams up with them), and fights villains -- all while being a blur instead of Superman.
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  2. #197
    Senior Member Cypher-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idlewildered View Post
    you're a conundrum Cypher, annoyingly your points are sometimes valid............
    *Bows*

    Im like a supervillain.

  3. #198
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Nope, it was your typical CW angst soap opera.
    It was a typical CW angst soap opera about an adolescent Clark Kent's journey to becoming Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Agreed. Really, it's the CW shows that seem to be the most ashamed of the source material -- with "Arrow" not wanting to be "Green Arrow" and the upcoming "Amazon" seemingly distancing itself from the name "Wonder Woman."
    I honestly think they just like the one word titles. Plus, Arrow has been on less than a year and its already populated with numerous folks from the DCU. If they were ashamed of the source material, you'd think they rely less on it not more.

    I understand that Smallville was originally meant to be Clark's life before Superman, but it got really ridiculous when he's in Metropolis, meets Lois, meets other heroes (teams up with them), and fights villains -- all while being a blur instead of Superman.
    It wasn't just originally meant to be Clark's life before Superman. That was the the purpose of the show throughout its ten year run. The villains Clark fought were rarely, if ever, the full blown versions of Superman's iconic villains (the villains were getting an origin story, too). Lois was not fully her iconic self, since she was still working in the DP basement. The other heroes of the proto-Justice League were a disconnected group of heroes who didn't fully coalesce until late in the game. All Smallville did was to present a version of the Superman myth in which becoming Superman was tied to a battle between light vs. dark. Clark understood the necessity of being an unmasked hero because it would go a long way to combat increasing anti-vigilante sentiment. Just because the show took a different path to get to the same place doesn't automatically make that path wrong. Why must Superman only meet Lois and other heroes after becoming Superman, for instance? Does it fundamentally alter the mythology? I'm not sure it does.

  4. #199
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I honestly think they just like the one word titles. Plus, Arrow has been on less than a year and its already populated with numerous folks from the DCU. If they were ashamed of the source material, you'd think they rely less on it not more.
    Good point. I retract my "Arrow" statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It wasn't just originally meant to be Clark's life before Superman. That was the the purpose of the show throughout its ten year run. The villains Clark fought were rarely, if ever, the full blown versions of Superman's iconic villains (the villains were getting an origin story, too). Lois was not fully her iconic self, since she was still working in the DP basement. The other heroes of the proto-Justice League were a disconnected group of heroes who didn't fully coalesce until late in the game. All Smallville did was to present a version of the Superman myth in which becoming Superman was tied to a battle between light vs. dark. Clark understood the necessity of being an unmasked hero because it would go a long way to combat increasing anti-vigilante sentiment. Just because the show took a different path to get to the same place doesn't automatically make that path wrong. Why must Superman only meet Lois and other heroes after becoming Superman, for instance? Does it fundamentally alter the mythology? I'm not sure it does.
    I know you have a favorable opinion of Smallville, but a 10-year run, without Clark becoming Superman; with other heroes popping up (proto or not), just doesn't work for me.

    Obviously, the show was successful, so kudos to them for that, but I can't really understand their insistence with keeping Clark from becoming Superman. To me, it sort of neuters Superman's importance, in the grand scheme of things. There was the proto-league, and a fully costumed JSA -- but the most important hero of all, never really materializes. Had they kept the other heroes out of it, then that would have been a different story, but for me, Superman should be the first and best hero -- the one that inspires the other heroes... Not the last guy to suit up.
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  5. #200
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    Yeah the no flights/tights rule made sense initially, because they wanted to use Superman's mythos/cast but not the superheroics. But they ended up making it a superhero show in every other sense of the word, including giving flights/tights to other characters. It just got inane at that point.

  6. #201
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    I know you have a favorable opinion of Smallville, but a 10-year run, without Clark becoming Superman; with other heroes popping up (proto or not), just doesn't work for me.
    Why? Superman is just a name. What I love about the use of the other heroes is that it shows how Clark was so integral in inspiring many of them to not just be heroes but to be the right kind of heroes. Clark became Superman when he was 25 years-old, which is hardly taking it slow.

    I can't really understand their insistence with keeping Clark from becoming Superman. To me, it sort of neuters Superman's importance, in the grand scheme of things.
    Superman's importance is dependent upon the time it takes for him to become Superman? It doesn't matter who he is or what he accomplishes. He defeated Zod three times, Brainiac two times, Bizarro two times, Doomsday once, Darkseid once, and a host of other iconic villains. His leadership encouraged the JSA to come out of hiding. His positive influence changed the lives of truly broken people like Tess Mercer.

    There was the proto-league, and a fully costumed JSA -- but the most important hero of all, never really materializes.
    Because he's not wearing spandex?

    Had they kept the other heroes out of it, then that would have been a different story, but for me, Superman should be the first and best hero -- the one that inspires the other heroes... Not the last guy to suit up.
    Smallville did tell the story of how Clark Kent inspired the other heroes to be heroes. Some of them like A.C. and Oliver were already engaging in acts of vigilante justice, but they weren't heroes. Bart, Victor, Zatanna, and Booster were all inspired by Clark to do the right thing and to use their gifts to help people. If not for Clark, all of the heroes would never have been able to step out of the shadows. It was The Blur's impact, after all, that ultimately turned the anti-vigilante tide back in Beacon. Oliver and A.C. made things worse not better. The other heroes needed Clark to become more than vigilantes. As Clark told Booster in Booster written by Geoff Johns, the suit doesn't make the hero.

  7. #202
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Why? Superman is just a name. What I love about the use of the other heroes is that it shows how Clark was so integral in inspiring many of them to not just be heroes but to be the right kind of heroes. Clark became Superman when he was 25 years-old, which is hardly taking it slow.
    To you, maybe, but not to me. I realize this is a meta way of looking at things, but the character truly is Superman, first and foremost, because everything else -- his secret identity, his support characters, his villains; all springs out of the creation of "SUPERMAN." This, largely, is why a show about Clark Kent never becoming Superman, just doesn't work for me. It's just an incomplete character to me.

    Again, I know Smallville is one of your favorite interpretations of the mythos, but it either went on too long, or included too much (while lacking Superman), for me to like it.
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  8. #203
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    To you, maybe, but not to me. I realize this is a meta way of looking at things, but the character truly is Superman, first and foremost, because everything else -- his secret identity, his support characters, his villains; all springs out of the creation of "SUPERMAN." This, largely, is why a show about Clark Kent never becoming Superman, just doesn't work for me. It's just an incomplete character to me.
    But that was the whole point of keeping him without the name for so long: to narrow down what truly makes Clark Kent into a true Superman. Having the secret identity, the love interest, and the villains are just pieces of the puzzle -- important ones but not the most important. What the show did was to show that becoming Superman isn't just something Clark just gets to decide to do one day. It's something he had to earn. Many of the other versions of the character aren't fully tested until after they get their name and tights. For Clark on Smallville, the suit and the name meant something so much more. It was the triumph at the end of a journey. The show was not about Clark Kent never becoming Superman. Clark became Superman; it just was at the end of the story.

    Again, I know Smallville is one of your favorite interpretations of the mythos, but it either went on too long, or included too much (while lacking Superman), for me to like it.
    Smallville is one of my favorite interpretations of the mythology because it made Clark's greatest quality as a future Superman his ability to give people the hope and encouragement they need to join him in the sun. I enjoyed the show's take on Lex Luthor and Lois Lane. I liked that many of Clark's victories over his enemies were not just the product of intelligence and brute force but more spiritual qualities like mercy and grace. The show had just as many questionable episodes and plot lines as comics have always had, but it got the heart right.

  9. #204
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    "Smallville" was not a show that was ashamed to be part of the mythos. It's whole point was to do something along the lines of what was shown in flashbacks in "Man Of Steel" #1, "World Of Metropolis" #3, "The Odyssey" and "For All Seasons" #1. Superboy had already been done, so there was no point in revisiting that. Those issues, which all predate the show, demonstrated that Clark was a hero without a costume and working in secret. The rule wasn't put in place to prevent Clark from doing heroics, but to prevent him from going to the level that the show's conclusion dictates.

    "Arrow" and "Amazon" are no different from "The Man Of Steel" and "The Dark Knight", because all four films follow the same principle of using a title that deviates from the norm. And of those, three of the ventures are fairly straight forward in what they are about. "Green Lantern" is the only exception so far.

  10. #205
    Senior Member Ironman2978's Avatar
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    I agree with Mat001 and misslane38. Smallville shows a Clark who develops into Superman and really examines why Clark would be Superman to the general audience. Clark decided for himself he wanted to be a symbol of hope(Prey, Identity, Infamous, Turbulence, Beacon and Masquerade) and use the house of el as the symbol of hope(Doomsday, Savior, Idol, Beacon, Masquerade) , he chose the daily planet to be able to Help people and disguise himself(Odyssey, Plastique, Prey, Identity, Infamous, Turbulence, Hex, Beacon, Masquerade, Booster). Sure he had a little help but he made the final decision to become Superman each and every time(like how JL:The Nail was inspired by Justice League, Lois and the Kents, Man of Steel because he was forced to make his first public save along with Ma and Pa Kent, Birthright Clark because of his time in Africa, learning more about Krypton and the Kents, Christopher Reeve Clark- the Kents and Jor-el, Earth One Clark because of Jimmy and Lois, the Kents and being forced to save the world from the alien threats, etc) and SV Clark been wanting to be able to go out in and reveal his power to the world but at the same time wanted to live a normal life which from what I can tell is exactly what Man Of Steel Clark wants too. and he officially became Superman at 24-25 years old(21-23 years old if you count his time as RBB/Blur) which is perfect because most Clark Kents become Superman between 20-25 at the least. (George Reeves Clark at 25, Dean Cain Clark at 27, Christopher Reeve at 29-30, Earth One Clark at 21, DCNU Clark at 21-22, etc) he just took a different road than most Clarks.


    Plus Smallville had various benefits: being the first live action Superman show to showcase: Superman/Clark Kent's relationship with the DC Universe, both heroes and villains and the first live action superhero medium(2 years before Iron Man and the Avengers did it) that was able to have the heroes have an episode to themselves to develop their character and personality, etc before showing them working together as the Justice League(or at least a proto JL)

    Also Smallville was no more or less faithful then Richard Donner Superman movies, DCAU(Batman: The Animated series, Justice League, etc) because they adapt elements from various parts of the Superman and DC Comics mythos from golden age to silver age to Donner movies to DCAU(Smallville Metallo is a combination of silver/bronze age John and Roger Corben, Black Canary (is founding member of JL like post crisis(First official woman Leaguer on Smallville at least), wears a mask of sorts and started out working with criminals like Golden Age Black Canary )Lex is a combination of silver/bronze age Lex(origin,personality, relationship to Superman, etc) and Post crisis Lex(crooked businessman, Machiavellian personality, uses scientists to help him), Bart( combo of Barry, Wally and comics Bart), etc ) which little to no other superhero media except for a few cartoons and movies did before Smallville in my opinion and embraced the comics and Superman/DC Mythos in some aspects but made changes in others.


    but seriously, can we please save the Smallville talk for the Smallville forums and talk about the Man of Steel picture again. Please?
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  11. #206
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    I mean there's not a whole lot to talk about with that one picture, so of course this thread will get side tracked.

    My thoughts on Smallville: If we just look at the very beginning of the show, the first 3 seasons, I think it was good for what it intended to be. It was far from a masterpiece drama, but for what it intended to be - a teen soap opera - it succeeded, even if there was room for improvement in the writing and acting (which I think was better than some give credit for). I think the idea of teen Clark as an allegory for the sense of alienation and angst in adolescence was pretty good. That kind of thing had been done with Superboy/Spider-Man, but this time without alter egos and costumes. I think even Grant Morrison has credited it for being the most popular incarnation of Superman in the 00s decade, and influenced the idea of the T-Shirt and jeans Superman in Action Comics.

    But they should have ended it in the Fifth Season, with Clark going to the Fortress to get his training. Everything they did after Jonathan Kent died was just off the rails. The no flights/tights rule is pointless if you're letting everyone else have those things. I think Seasons 8-9 was a return to form when they set it up as a Superman: Year One kind of deal, but Season 10 was disappointing.

  12. #207
    Senior Member Ironman2978's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I mean there's not a whole lot to talk about with that one picture, so of course this thread will get side tracked.

    My thoughts on Smallville: If we just look at the very beginning of the show, the first 3 seasons, I think it was good for what it intended to be. It was far from a masterpiece drama, but for what it intended to be - a teen soap opera - it succeeded, even if there was room for improvement in the writing and acting (which I think was better than some give credit for). I think the idea of teen Clark as an allegory for the sense of alienation and angst in adolescence was pretty good. That kind of thing had been done with Superboy/Spider-Man, but this time without alter egos and costumes. I think even Grant Morrison has credited it for being the most popular incarnation of Superman in the 00s decade, and influenced the idea of the T-Shirt and jeans Superman in Action Comics.

    But they should have ended it in the Fifth Season, with Clark going to the Fortress to get his training. Everything they did after Jonathan Kent died was just off the rails. The no flights/tights rule is pointless if you're letting everyone else have those things. I think Seasons 8-9 was a return to form when they set it up as a Superman: Year One kind of deal, but Season 10 was disappointing.

    You do got a bit of point there.Overall I agree with your post. To me , although Smallville between 5-7 was far from perfect and felt like it was stuck in a rut and ran out ideas until season 8. Honestly I would have been perfectly fine if it ended at season 5 with an ending similar to the finale and Homecoming . But at the same time I like how when Clark grew and became more Superman like the DC grew and also how Clark inspired people to become heroes. And if it did end early we wouldn't have seen Tom Welling Clark become more like Superman and a member/leader of the JL and DC Universe among other things and why/how someone like Smallville Clark would School to become Superman and go public for. Smallville did have just as much influence on comics and other Superman media than people gave credit for.


    I agree season 8-9 were great and had the most Superman feel of the show(to me season 10 was tied with season 8 and way better than season 5 and 7 in my opinion because it had way more better moments like the Clark/Aquaman episode, when Clark finally choose to wear the glasses, the finale, etc) and in terms of things like special effects and heroes and villains close if not exactly like their comic counterparts in looks, personality, origin, etc(Silver Banshee, Doomsday,Darkseid, Toyman, Metallo, etc). So Smallville helped provide a way to provide fan who knows little to nothing about Superman/DC comics universe a new look at the Superman mythos.
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  13. #208
    Senior Member Tra-EL's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tra-EL; 01-10-2013 at 08:24 PM.

  14. #209
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tra-EL View Post
    It says something when Superman is not wearing the goofiest costume in the room. I feel bad for our poor servicemen.

  15. #210
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Now to me the red and blue here is a great shade. The yellow still looks dirty though.

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