I'm just not enjoying H'el on Earth...

[Mr. Holmes]

We already talked about this, but yeah they're basically polar opposites. Snyder is a great writer in the technical way, but his plotting and characters are pretty weak. Joker's whole premise in Death of the Family is pretty flimsy. Lobdell writes great characters and has really cool ideas, but his writing is really rough and unrefined.

Ultimately for me, I'm way more interested in the latter. Superhero comics are inherently juvenile (for the most part), so for me what works for them is being highly imaginative and energetic. When you try to be overly serious (and pretentious) it sucks out all the fun out of it, and that's one of my problems with Batman.

H'El himself isn't that interesting, I'm seeing the plot as more secondary as a chance for the characters to come together. You have Superman and Superboy building a dynamic, the Justice League coming in as a whole to play off both characters, Kara being misgudied by H'el and anatgonistic to Superman/boy because of her tragic experience with Krypton, etc. Some more insight into Krypton (building off what Morrison did with Gene Ha).

On the other hand, I think DoTF is a really flimsy premise to begin with, and really contradicts some of my favorite moments pre-FP, namely Joker being highly amused and entertained with Dick and Damian. The face gimmick does nothing either. The Owls were really flimsy too, but at least CoO works as a simple blockbuster and doesn't take itself as seriously as DoTF (though that's not saying much).

[MarvelMaster616]

I agree that He'el On Earth hasn't been as good as I hoped it would be. It started off strong, but now it has been dragging for the past few issues. I'm really not liking how He'el is being developed. He's just not very compelling as a character. But it has still been an enjoyable story on many levels. The action has been solid. The art has been great. And I like how Superboy, Supergirl, and the Justice League have been brought into the mix. But overall, I agree it really isn't as awesome as it could have been.

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah I love how the Superman books are aiming for generic, boring, crossover mediocrity and hitting that bar perfectly. I despise effort.

But hey it's better than the Culling so I'll give it deserves an award for being the least shittest thing DeFalco has been involved in for quite some time. YAY!

Not at all what I said nor implied but okay. Effort is not synonymous with having to make everything definitive. Its coming off as pretentious at this point. That of course is just my own opinion, but its not championing no effort either.

[kingaliencracker]

I don't get that feeling at all. Superman #0 set it up in fact so that it left one with the distinct feeling that this storyline is leading somewhere and will have repercussions.

Its not trying so incredibly hard to be epic and defining as DoTF is...but I consider that a good thing at this point.

We'll have to disagree. I don't see H'el as being much more than another run-of-the mill Kryptonian villain that pops up every 6 months. But maybe I'm wrong on that.

And IMO, Superman desperately needs an EPIC and DEFINING story. He's been lacking that consistently for quite some time.

[Mr. Holmes]

You should enjoy Snyder's upcoming book. He loves "EPIC and DEFINING."

[kingaliencracker]

You should enjoy Snyder's upcoming book. He loves "EPIC and DEFINING."

I don't understand...are you saying there's a problem with EPIC and DEFINING?

[Aquacatlungfish]

Heh. At least, I understand what's going on.
I'm still trying to figure out what the Court was trying to do in Night of the Owls.

Regain power over Gotham.

Or why they tried to kill Lincoln March.

"You're a traitor and a thief. You were a member of the Court of Owls but you betrayed them... You took money from the top members." Even without that blatant explanation it could easily be interpreted as Lincoln faking his own death and using the court to do so. I think you just love horses

Not at all what I said nor implied but okay. Effort is not synonymous with having to make everything definitive. Its coming off as pretentious at this point. That of course is just my own opinion, but its not championing no effort either.

Trying to make everything definitive takes effort. That means you're going to have to take everything you love about a character and what the readers love about the characters and put them into one story. That takes a lot of effort. Snyder clearly loves Batman and the Joker and is referencing all things from his past and bringing back obscure characters from old Silver Age comics and it comes off as his dream project.

What I hated about the first fucking terrible year of the main Superman title was how bland and boring it was. I really couldn't find anything worth recommending about it at all. Perez clearly didn't put any heart in it at all. I also hated Avenger vs X-Men for that same reason. Garbage editorial mandates in the form of a comic and this is coming from someone who likes all the creators involved.

I really can't find that amount of effort in Batman in H'El on Earth. It's better than the two examples above but H'El just bores the shit out of me. The idea of having Superman fight Supergirl's abusive boyfriend really wasn't a good premise anyway. I do look forward to Superman after this crossover though. Hopefully it'll be as good as Red Hood's early days.

[Auguste Dupin]

Regain power over Gotham.



"You're a traitor and a thief. You were a member of the Court of Owls but you betrayed them... You took money from the top members." Even without that blatant explanation it could easily be interpreted as Lincoln faking his own death and using the court to do so. I think you just love horses

-I thought the whole point of the Court was that they already had power over Gotham. I mean, I thought that was why they had their own little song, and why one of their henchmen had his little appearance in the Jonah Hex book (which, by the way, made the whole "we control Gotham from within" MUCH BETTER. In two issues.). Even admitting that they lost it for some reason (not that we are being told so), their master plan to regain control of the city is to send dozen of incredibly obvious ninjas to kill everyone? Worst. Secret. Society. Ever. And then, they're anticlimatically murdered off panel by a dude we saw in 3 issues? After only appearing once, and being given the personality of the crowd in Mortal Kombat? What the f.....? H'El is a Goddamn Shakespearian character compared to these guys. These guys are morrons.

-Ho, yes, because a bunch of guys who dress up with creepy masks so they can witness their genetically engineered and immortal henchmen beat the crap of a bat man inside a Labyrinth made under the city, is clearly in for the money. Why did Lincoln March took money from them, anyway? I mean, he was about to be mayor. Why screw with his secret evil sponsor that was going to bribe your victory just now? Is he dumb?

[Mr. Holmes]

Trying to make everything definitive takes effort. That means you're going to have to take everything you love about a character and what the readers love about the characters and put them into one story. That takes a lot of effort. Snyder clearly loves Batman and the Joker and is referencing all things from his past and bringing bac

And it's completely misguided effort, especially when the result is a mediocre story. Snyder was doing better Batman stories (Black Mirror) when he wasn't trying to be definitive.

[B. Kuwanger]

And he really knew how to wrap it up, damn.

I hate when writers throw in "ramifications." If I don't like one story but want the next one, I'll buy the next one and go on not caring how they reference yours.

The idea of having Superman fight Supergirl's abusive boyfriend really wasn't a good premise anyway. I do look forward to Superman after this crossover though.

me too, but I also find it hilarious that the abusive tool boyfriend is also beating Superman up.

[md62]

I can't wait for the H'El crossover to end. I find it boring.

I am looking forward to Andy Diggle's Action Comics, Lobdell freed up from the crossover to write more in his style & Synder's MOS. DC could mess it up if they too heavy handed from an editorial standpoint.

[Hatiko]

The biggest issue is that H'El talks too much. And the romance thing between him and Kara, so funny.

[C. Earl]

I opted to sit out H'El on Earth. Looks like it was the right thing to do.

[Young Corn God]

H'El himself isn't that interesting, I'm seeing the plot as more secondary as a chance for the characters to come together. You have Superman and Superboy building a dynamic, the Justice League coming in as a whole to play off both characters, Kara being misgudied by H'el and anatgonistic to Superman/boy because of her tragic experience with Krypton, etc. Some more insight into Krypton (building off what Morrison did with Gene Ha).

I agree with a lot of what you said in this post (and in others), but I don't understand why you are willing to settle for such an ill-defined villain in light of all this stuff? It doesn't have to be either/or. I don't think it's too much to expect good characterization from the lead characters, Krypton trivia, AND a meaningful/interesting villain.

The villain is, after all, a relatively important character.

Why should we have to wait for a future writer to make Scott Lobdell's villain interesting?

Is a story consisting of about 12 issues not enough room to include dynamic character work for the main bad guy?

I know not everything needs to be perfect, but I think you should hold this comic (and this crossover) to a higher standard.

[dupersuper]

I'm just not enjoying H'el on Earth...

What an odd complaint to read...