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  1. #106

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    I'm not sure that red skies and all indicate fifth dimensional attack, simply supra-universal attack. It represents the bleed being breached, spilling out. The 5th Dimension had nothing to do with the original Crisis, but that is obviously where Morrison is getting his inspiration for all the Red skies stuff, why he used it in Final Crisis in the same way, etc.

    A proto Super-Doom could as likely be the villain who killed Superman on "Doomsday" as any, but so too could the original Doomsday. It's left undefined, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that a later writer will come in and establish that it was just the standard Doomsday.
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  2. #107

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    As an aside, I sort of like that Morrison seems to be explaining Johns' shitty, dystopian take on the Legion's racist future as the result of the manipulation of Vyn and Co.

    It looks as though the Legion is coming back to avert that (wrong) future and reset it as the right one.

    That fits with the actual Legion book, which has nicely abandoned that take.
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  3. #108
    All Roads Lead To Hell 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Sounds to me almost like Morrison is keeping the monster's identity oblique because he's leaving it up to editorial to make up their minds on who they want it to be, and we know from experience how many times they can change their minds before making a decision. Just leaving it a mystery is is good for Superman not only from a clean continuity standpoint in that regard, but also just in terms of story as I find the idea that he was killed by a monster that no one knows the identity of even up to the present day a very intriguing mystery to move forward with. It can end up being anyone, from "classic" Doomsday with a revised origin (I still favor the First Worldkiller route), or something completely new.
    I like that, although I'm not sure about him letting editorial "decide" about that kind of things (if that's the case, though; I know they are the bosses, but still). And that's why I didn't like that much the fact that the Fortress Of Solitude will be reveales to the world in H'El on Earth. However, I still have hopes for Lobdell to give an interesting twist to this development. I think that there should be this halo of mystery surrounding Superman/ Krypton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I also would love it if something about this day or the second Fifth Dimension attack in this issue be used somehow to conjure up an eventual new origin for Cyborg Superman. It'd be cool if he were re-introduced with a tie still to the death in some fashion or another. Like have Henshaw and his wife in space when the red sun occurred on Doomsday, doing a space walk or something and were poisoned by the radiation.
    I agree. And this time, he should stay a Superman villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    It's new. Pre-Crisis it used to be the equivalent of Green K for Bizarros. Post Crisis, for a while, it made Bizarro's super intelligent, but then in the Geoff Johns era it was again Green K for Bizarros.

    So this is new.
    I like this. It gives things some sort of metaphysical context.
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  4. #109
    All Roads Lead To Hell 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    While a timetable was never given, does anyone get the impression Superman was not dead for long this time? One, the statue just looks like a statue, not a tomb. To me suggesting he was never buried. Maybe I'm reading too much into Jimmy's words as they're not exactly highly descriptive, but I just got the feeling on reading it that this time around it wasn't a double-kill, that the monster killed Superman and that was that. If that were the case, he couldn't have been gone long as Superman would have to return in a reasonable amount of time to then save the day. So I'm thinking he was gone for a very brief period, maybe a day to a few days, at which time the monster ravaged Metropolis, then Superman returns, defeats the monster, and helps rebuild the city, then they build the statue to honor him.
    I got that feeling, too. This time there was no double-kill. Also, I get the feeling that Superman never really died, but it happened more like the Superman/Doomsday DVD. His vitals were so low after the battle, that everyone thought he was dead. I also agree on the red sun thing. I was going to say that Luthor was involved in that part, but then I remembered what Diggle said about his first arc in AC.

    And yeah, this issue was freakin' awesome. Loved it.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    A proto Super-Doom could as likely be the villain who killed Superman on "Doomsday" as any, but so too could the original Doomsday. It's left undefined, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that a later writer will come in and establish that it was just the standard Doomsday.
    I kind of wish it was left as Morrison is presenting it...just a vague background story that the characters all seem to know, but we have little details...I think at this point, and in context of the New 52, it makes the "death" more powerful...

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    That's exactly how I read it. I'm confused why people think there was a monster named Doomsday.
    Wasn't Booster Gold the first character to use the term? At least I've always blamed it on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah I hope we never see Doomsday...err..that monster ever again now. Let him just be a historical being that killed Superman and died.
    Agreed, I would also love to see Grant Morrison expand the new 52 DoS and show us the whole thing eventually. I especially like the sun turning red and raining blood or was it black rain, I can't remember which atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    While a timetable was never given, does anyone get the impression Superman was not dead for long this time?
    I think that's very possible seeing as Reign of the Supermen! never happened and we've already had Steel & Superboy retcons that don't involve DoS. Infact I think Hank Henshaw was mentioned but can't remember where.
    Last edited by Ood Omega; 01-10-2013 at 09:25 AM.
    "It is wrong to assume that art needs the spectator in order to be. The film runs on without any eyes. The spectator cannot exist without it. It ensures his existence." -- James Douglas Morrison

  7. #112
    Gratin dauphinois psyshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I'm not sure that red skies and all indicate fifth dimensional attack, simply supra-universal attack. It represents the bleed being breached, spilling out. The 5th Dimension had nothing to do with the original Crisis, but that is obviously where Morrison is getting his inspiration for all the Red skies stuff, why he used it in Final Crisis in the same way, etc.
    I agree that the red skies represent a breach in the bleed, as it coincides with Super-doom arrival (I think).

    Also, since days and years are collapsing, is it possible that the Superman's death Lois and Jimmy refer to is what we start to witness at the end of the issue? Notice they also refer to Metropolis being in ruins 3 years ago, and the nurse states the skyline is different, as the more we advance in the story, the more Metropolis appears in ruin. That would explain why they say it appears familiar. Or am I totally confused?

  8. #113
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    psyshot, after just rereading the last few issues I think you're on to something...it does seem that time is so messed up that they are actually remembering what comes next...this means that we already know what happens since it's been said that he dies, comes back to defeat the monster and then rebuilds metropolis...

    I can't wait to see how #17 plays out...and I'm sad, as someone who typically doesn't read the Superman stuff (except SA stuff for fun), that my run with the character will most likely be over...

  9. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by psyshot View Post
    I agree that the red skies represent a breach in the bleed, as it coincides with Super-doom arrival (I think).

    Also, since days and years are collapsing, is it possible that the Superman's death Lois and Jimmy refer to is what we start to witness at the end of the issue? Notice they also refer to Metropolis being in ruins 3 years ago, and the nurse states the skyline is different, as the more we advance in the story, the more Metropolis appears in ruin. That would explain why they say it appears familiar. Or am I totally confused?
    At this point I'm not going to think too hard about the collapse and contraction of time in real terms, not until the whole thing is done. It strikes me that it serves two purposes, one as a comment on the way that Superman's history has been shortened and condensed into a 5 year timeline from the previous version's (not to mention the real world 75), and two as an in book cheat on how to fit a bunch of Superman continuity into the limited timeline provided him.

    Remains to be seen if Morrison will actually be using it in the latter, but I'm pretty convinced about the former at minimum. Especially if you buy that our villain represents the forces of restriction and computation that are collapsing time in this way, the part of us (as readers, editors, writers, etc) that need everything to fit perfectly into a timeline, etc. If the 5th dimension is sort of higher versions of our own drives and selves (Mxy as imagination, his bride as love, Vyn as cold logic, etc) it works pretty well as allegory.

    I haven't read this thread so that may have already been addressed.
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  10. #115
    Petite Canaille OldSchoolfan's Avatar
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    Somewhere in here is a good Superman story. Good luck trying to find it. So glad that this is the penultimate issue.

    I was ready to move on to a new creative team the minute I heard who was going to write Action. And now, that day is soon to be here.
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  11. #116
    Infâme et fier de l'être Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolfan View Post
    Somewhere in here is a good Superman story. Good luck trying to find it. So glad that this is the penultimate issue.

    I was ready to move on to a new creative team the minute I heard who was going to write Action. And now, that day is soon to be here.
    On the plus side (for you, I mean), Morrison did explain why Suzie joined forces with the Little Man.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  12. #117
    luchador número UNO ElMacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyshot View Post
    I agree that the red skies represent a breach in the bleed, as it coincides with Super-doom arrival (I think).

    Also, since days and years are collapsing, is it possible that the Superman's death Lois and Jimmy refer to is what we start to witness at the end of the issue? Notice they also refer to Metropolis being in ruins 3 years ago, and the nurse states the skyline is different, as the more we advance in the story, the more Metropolis appears in ruin. That would explain why they say it appears familiar. Or am I totally confused?
    Nope you're pretty much on the money psyshot, exactly how I saw it, except for the first part IMO.

    Vyn is "collapsing days together" as Clark says, he's literally making Superman fight in the Metropolis of "that day" 3 years ago, but in the here and now. The familiarity of it, right down to the actual skyline changing are clues to "that day" being brought back again, literally, the seasons change intermittently as days collapse into each other.

    The red sun doesn't coincide with Superdoom's arrival, he used the very same musical meta-machine to reach Calvin Ellis's dimension in Action #9, with no sky change.

  13. #118

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    Little confused about the Legion seen here, though -- it appears to be the Reboot/Post-Zero Hour Legion, with Sensor in her snake form.
    since Sensor is seen as well as Tasmia is called Umbra....i'm thinking Multiverseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... aka not Prime Earth but a possible Reboot Earth recreated in the wake of Flashpoint.

  14. #119
    luchador número UNO ElMacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyshot View Post
    Also, since days and years are collapsing, is it possible that the Superman's death Lois and Jimmy refer to is what we start to witness at the end of the issue?
    Sorry forgot to address this part earlier, I don't think we're witnessing the beginning of Superman's first death at the end of this issue. The memorial statue was already in the park before Vyn brought "doomsday" forward 3 years, into the present.

    Also, nobody seems to have said it outright yet, but I'm fairly sure that the sun turned red only once in Action continuity, Vyn's just bringing back the one time that it did.

  15. #120
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElMacho View Post
    Nope you're pretty much on the money psyshot, exactly how I saw it, except for the first part IMO.

    Vyn is "collapsing days together" as Clark says, he's literally making Superman fight in the Metropolis of "that day" 3 years ago, but in the here and now. The familiarity of it, right down to the actual skyline changing are clues to "that day" being brought back again, literally, the seasons change intermittently as days collapse into each other.

    The red sun doesn't coincide with Superdoom's arrival, he used the very same musical meta-machine to reach Calvin Ellis's dimension in Action #9, with no sky change.
    This is how I read it aswel. It's quite the story.

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