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  1. #46
    Junior Member byron lomax's Avatar
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    I didn't like it - the writing to me felt like someone trying to copy Miller's style and falling pretty far short. Batman's characterisation is horrible and makes him feel more like a Sin City character. The treatment of Robin, and other characters such as The Martian Manhunter, was silly and self-indulgent.

    There were some scenes I liked - some interesting use of the Flash, The Atom, and Captain Marvel (his death scene was great). And I loved that creepy bit with the weird, wide-eyed character in Saturn Girl's outfit.

  2. #47
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    It's Invincible or Irredeemable level good if not better.
    *...shudder*
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  3. #48
    Elder Member Jared's Avatar
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    If it had been called "The Justice League Returns" it would be more accurate and probably have gotten a better reception, as it'd be a spinoff, not a direct sequel, to one of the most beloved comics ever.

    The joker-zombiefied (or whatever) Dick Grayson thrown in as a villain at the end was just terrible. Dick as a villain *should* be a really big deal, and requires much better execution. It just felt like Miller getting lazy, "oh, how about the bad guy is Dick? Sure, that works."

    I wasn't wild about the art, but it did grow on me. It fits what the going for, in the places where the story is actually good.

    I will say that Supergirl showing up to fight Braniac was one of my favorite scenes in a comic. "I wasn't raised in Kansas, you son of a bitch. I'm an Amazon."
    Last edited by Jared; 01-07-2013 at 10:03 PM.
    "Family Guy jumped the shark when i stopped getting high every time i watched it. " - Alex

  4. #49
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Okay "masterpiece" might be a stretch,
    Yeah, I was going to say. But I agree it's drastically underrated. And the reason for that (other than Varley clearly teaching herself computer coloring as she went along) is that Miller loves to subvert fan expectation. People don't seem to remember it now, but DKR was a case of that, too. He took what everyone expected from a Batman comic at the time and then gleefully did the opposite. And with DKSA, fans seemed to want Miller to repeat perfectly what he had already done in the 1980s. Then they got unreasonably angry when he didn't want to do that. Miller loves giving fans something different than what they were expecting.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by byron lomax View Post
    I didn't like it - the writing to me felt like someone trying to copy Miller's style and falling pretty far short. Batman's characterisation is horrible and makes him feel more like a Sin City character. The treatment of Robin, and other characters such as The Martian Manhunter, was silly and self-indulgent.
    Actually, Martian Manhunter's characterization was already described in Dark Knight Returns. We just actually saw it here.

  6. #51
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    The joker-zombiefied (or whatever) Dick Grayson thrown in as a villain at the end was just terrible. Dick as a villain *should* be a really big deal, and requires much better execution. It just felt like Miller getting lazy, "oh, how about the bad guy is Dick? Sure, that works."
    It felt less like that, and more like Miller have little respect for Grayson's character and deciding to have a laugh at the decades old subtext that comes with examining early Batman stories (which were intended as children's entertainment) through the lens of a modern, "mature" fan's sensibilities.

    Much like that "I'll show them how many Boner's the Joker can make!" image that floats around the interwebs.

    But if DC is willing to let respected creators openly mock their IP; then why not, right?

    If only the actual story had been better, then the DKSA characterization of Grayson as the "scorned lover" might have persisted the way Miller's particular version of Batman has.
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 01-07-2013 at 11:28 PM.

  7. #52
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    Yeah, I was going to say. But I agree it's drastically underrated. And the reason for that (other than Varley clearly teaching herself computer coloring as she went along) is that Miller loves to subvert fan expectation. People don't seem to remember it now, but DKR was a case of that, too. He took what everyone expected from a Batman comic at the time and then gleefully did the opposite. And with DKSA, fans seemed to want Miller to repeat perfectly what he had already done in the 1980s. Then they got unreasonably angry when he didn't want to do that. Miller loves giving fans something different than what they were expecting.
    Indeed. And i've always felt that The Dark Knight Returns was more of a response to the 60's Adam West show than it was the Batman comics being published at the time.
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 01-07-2013 at 11:26 PM.

  8. #53
    Crusader of Justice dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    Indeed. And i've always felt that The Dark Knight Returns was more of a response to the 60's Adam West show than it was the Batman comics being published at the time.
    I'm not sure whether it's based on the comics or the telly programme, but it was about a 60s Batman coming out of retirement in the 80s - and not (as many people believe) the 80s Batman coming out of retirement in the future, so you might be spot on.

  9. #54
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I'm not sure whether it's based on the comics or the telly programme, but it was about a 60s Batman coming out of retirement in the 80s - and not (as many people believe) the 80s Batman coming out of retirement in the future, so you might be spot on.
    And of course a big part of The Dark Knight Returns is the context; not just the satire of 80's events and culture, but of "Batman" as he existed in the mind of popular culture at the time. The DKR was the pendulum swinging away from the campy Adam West Batman, which itself was an extreme. But for anyone new to comics today they aren't able to really see the whole picture, so Miller's Batman becomes the only Batman. I don't think most understand that the Batman in DKR isn't really the same Batman that Miller grew up reading, or that we read about in Year One. You can look at the work of modern writers like Snyder and it seems obvious that he's writing the main DCU Batman with DKR in mind as the end game.

    Miller picked up on this, I think, which is clear from reading The Dark Knight Returns and then jumping forward to All Star Batman. Not very subtle, but at least there's no mistaking that All Star features "The Goddamn Batman".

  10. #55
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I'm not sure whether it's based on the comics or the telly programme, but it was about a 60s Batman coming out of retirement in the 80s - and not (as many people believe) the 80s Batman coming out of retirement in the future, so you might be spot on.
    That's how the 80's looked to Miller? No wonder he lost his mind...
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  11. #56
    Crusader of Justice dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    That's how the 80's looked to Miller? No wonder he lost his mind...
    That's his satirical take on the 80s - which was why Ronald Reagan, David Letterman and Dr Ruth are all in it.

  12. #57
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Finally something me and Holmes agree on!

    DKSA is completely amazing. People hate on it mostly because it's different and different is bad.

  13. #58
    Renegade of Funk HessTheMess's Avatar
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    I read both Dark Knight Returns and Strikes Again back to back, and then wished I didn't. Dark Knight Returns overshadowed Strikes Again by a long shot and I ended up seeing Strikes Again as a huge let down. Maybe waiting a while between books would have been better, or maybe not.

  14. #59
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    I love DKR. I think DKSA is superior to DKR on nearly every front that isn't its historic significance or the influence of what people (somewhat falsely) remember it being. And it had the Flash.

  15. #60

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    I have to admit when I got around to reading DKSA it was with some trepidation cos I'd heard it had mixed reception at best so I was genuinely surprised how much I enjoyed it. Miller's takes on the various Justice League guys (Hal, Barry, Atom, Plas, Captain Marvel etc) were just all really awesome.

    It's also quite amusing to me how vastly different the relationship between Bruce and Hal is compared to ASBAR. Damn I'd like to see what happened along that character arc.

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